360 F1 Transmission Driving Technique - Ferrari Life
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 24 Old 12-09-2012, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
bisel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Scottsdale
Ferrari Life Posts: 419
F1 Transmission Driving Technique

Hello All,

At the risk of exposing my lack of experience driving an F1 transmission, I am reaching out to the community to provide me some advice.

I have driven manual transmissions all my life, but this is my first Ferrari and of course my first time with a F1 transmission. As a first timer, I am realizing that I need to improve my skills in driving / shifting techniques that I am comfortable with. Let me start by describing some of things that I have found to have been a problem for me:

The first time I drove a F1 transmission on the Ferrari, I started from rest in first gear and the car immediately started bucking back and forth. As I tried to feather the throttle, I only exasperated the situation. I had to shift to neutral or 2nd gear. It was very disconcerting.

My early experience with the car, when up-shifting, especially in the lower gears, were not what I would call smooth. As a long timer manual transmission guy, I always tried to make my shifts (especially at lower speeds) smooth enough that one did not feel the gear change. The Ferrari with the F1 would reward me with a noticeable sensation of gear change ...especially if I did as the owner manual suggested and not lift the throttle during gear changes. The shifts are very abrupt. Now I know one reason why there are no cup holders in the car.

I have read some posts from others here on developing a better technique to improve my driving experience and I am developing my skills. To describe what I am doing ...

First, when starting in 1st gear, I try to GENTLY apply the throttle ... like having a raw egg between my foot and the throttle. But, sometimes, I forget and the car bucks a bit. Starting in 2nd gear offers one way to ameliorate the bucking, but I believe that wears the clutch faster.

I am developing my technique to gently back off the throttle when up-shifting to make the up-shifts smoother. I have seen in some posts that some members do this and some do not. Of course, gentle acceleration and not revving the engine too high before up-shifting will also result in smoother up shifts.

When slowing down in traffic, I down shift through the gears to 3rd gear. Then as I roll slowly I will shift directly to neutral to minimize clutch wear. Coming up to a stop light or stop sign, rolling along in 3rd down to about 10mph and then going to neutral seems to work well for me. I believe brake pads are less expensive than clutch plates.

The most annoying issue I have is developing a naturally smooth technique when starting in 1st gear. Am doing something wrong? Is there something that can be adjusted on the car? Have others experienced this characteristic? I feel like such an idiot when the car bucks back and forth. I would really welcome some feedback on some things others are doing to start from rest in first gear and make the car pull away nice and smooth.

Thanks,

Steve
bisel is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 Old 12-09-2012, 10:19 AM
Owner
 
Brian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin Texas
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,833
Take the car to someone very able, equipped and qualified to work on a 360 F1 system. That requirement is not always filled by a dealer.

Have them fix it. What you are describing just should not be going on. The entire point of the system is to make the car nearly as easy to operate as a car equipped with an automatic transmission.

A few possibilities. Improper clutch installation and or set up is a very common problem, sticking throw out bearing due to incorrect or swelling seals is likewise. Incorrect settings in the TCU and early, poor softwear versions of the TCU should be considered. Broken failed transmission and engine mounts are also quite common. Also there is a wives tale that started with an individual at FNA that became very wide spread that the flywheels cannot be resurfaced. That is idiotic and incorrect, the fallout of which is many shops and dealers are either replacing flywheels or just slapping a new clutch on the old flywheel. A new flywheel is almost $2000 and at least then you will at least have a fighting chance. But to just install a new clutch on the old one is hopeless. The flywheels distort into a bowl shape and good friction material contact is impossible and creates an engagement curve the computer cannot cope with. The other problem with the flywheel is due to it's design. It is very difficult to resurface correctly and many machine shops have just made a bad situation hopeless.

Lack of knowledge of the system by the people servicing them has been their biggest enemy. Very few of us, even in the dealers have ever been to school on them and failing to get guidence or trying in any way to get a real understanding of them is nearly the rule, not the exception. A good deal of my work is repairing F1 systems screwed up by other shops. Also a surprisingly small percentage of shops that feel justified in replacing clutches posess any form of electronic equipment to properly finish the job.


Quit trying to adapt to a car that is not working correctly.
Brian is offline  
post #3 of 24 Old 12-09-2012, 10:50 AM
Owner
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Santa Barbara, CA.
Ferrari Life Posts: 199
Next time I am AZ, lets get together and you can drive my 360 F1. From your description, I think you will see something is wrong with your car and its not you.

I have had no trouble going from manual to F1 and never get any bucking back and forth, neither has my wife or daughter when they drive it.
mikeyr is offline  
 
post #4 of 24 Old 12-09-2012, 10:58 AM
Owner
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: LA/Dubai
Ferrari Life Posts: 132
I have the bucking issue as well but only when downshifting then immediately going up a hill. Very very rarely happens when sitting in heavy traffic as well.

F430, 458 Challenge, Ford GT, Gallardo, C63 Black,
PMCCHRIS is offline  
post #5 of 24 Old 12-09-2012, 12:22 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Serres,Greece
Ferrari Life Posts: 151
The guys above are right,i also know that the F1 transmision is designed to work as close as a normal automatic does so that hard shifting when you are on low throtlle and that rolling is something that a F1 gearbox specialist should check,and something else Edd China(popolular UK mechanic) said,always drive down to 1st gear,push once more the DOWN paddle and then press both to go into neutral
F.Alexandros is offline  
post #6 of 24 Old 12-09-2012, 12:26 PM
Owner
 
StefVan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Switzerland
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,343
Steve, you did very well to post your question here Please follow Brian's good advice, there is definitely something wrong on your car. The F1 will always be smoother than a manual except when shifting at high revvs, then it can become quite brutal.
StefVan is online now  
post #7 of 24 Old 12-09-2012, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
bisel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Scottsdale
Ferrari Life Posts: 419
I really appreciate the comments. The shop I take my car to is owned by a former Ferrari test driver and senior mechanic on Ferrari 360 development team. He has an excellent reputation and I will pick his brain and submit the car for his review.

I am encouraged by the thought of the possibility that there is an issue with car, although that sounds like I might be dipping into my piggy bank again.

Steve
bisel is offline  
post #8 of 24 Old 12-09-2012, 03:38 PM
Owner
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: LA/Dubai
Ferrari Life Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisel View Post
I really appreciate the comments. The shop I take my car to is owned by a former Ferrari test driver and senior mechanic on Ferrari 360 development team. He has an excellent reputation and I will pick his brain and submit the car for his review.

I am encouraged by the thought of the possibility that there is an issue with car, although that sounds like I might be dipping into my piggy bank again.

Steve

Steve if you do not mind if you could kindly keep us updated with the issue as I believe we have the same if not similar issue.

Thank you

F430, 458 Challenge, Ford GT, Gallardo, C63 Black,
PMCCHRIS is offline  
post #9 of 24 Old 12-09-2012, 09:35 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Steve- If you regularly start the car in 2nd gear, you will be lucky to have the clutch last 5000 miles. Any kind of hill at all and you will smell burnt clutch lining.

Like Brian said, have someone check the F1 system for you with an SD2 and hopefully it is not anything serious.

Alexandros- The F1 system is in no way designed to work like an automatic transmission except it has an auto position and will shift gears for you. The transmission and clutch in the F1 and three pedal 360s are identical and the major differences between F1 and three pedal cars are the shifter mechanism and clutch throw-out (thrust) bearing.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is offline  
post #10 of 24 Old 12-10-2012, 04:53 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
bisel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Scottsdale
Ferrari Life Posts: 419
I took the car out to get some gas today. Always a good excuse to go out, is it not?

I think I want to revise my description of the problem I am experiencing. I was using the term, bucking, when starting off in first gear. Although that does describe what is happening, I believe it may be more accurate to say that the engine revs are surging. In lower gears, especially in first, the throttle has a hair trigger and is extremely sensitive. As I pull away from a stop in first gear, if I let off on the throttle, the engine revs back down, but then it will try to pick up the slack so to speak. It then becomes difficult to stop from hopping about like a kangaroo. My first reaction if the engine surges up is to back off the throttle, but then as I try to maintain a constant or gentle acceleration, the surging goes up and down resulting in the " bucking" action I described. The clutch engages fine. The transmission shifts fine, but the overly sensitive throttle is driving me crazy. I find it damned difficult to smoothly accelerate. I find I have to barely creep away until I shift into second gear or I have to accelerate very briskly to avoid the engine rev surging and prevent the car from "bucking" like a kangaroo.

On my manual transmission M3, I can induce this behavior, but a quick disengaging the clutch resolves this. But, for sure the BMW throttle is not as sensitive as the Ferrari. So, is this just me? My buddy suggests that I learn how to drive. I am wondering if this might be a setting on the fly-by-wire throttle or ECU?

I have not had opportunity to take it over to the shop yet, likely be next week if I cannot get around to it in the next day or so.

Still feeling pretty stupid here Thanks,

Steve

Last edited by bisel; 12-10-2012 at 05:20 PM.
bisel is offline  
post #11 of 24 Old 12-10-2012, 06:24 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Steve- Sounds like the result of driving a really lightweight flywheel engine. Incidentally, if your right foot does get you in trouble, you can always hit both paddles and go to neutral. For many people, driving one of these cars is like learning to drive all over again. On start from a stop, light to moderate steady throttle works best until the clutch is fully engaged, at which point, more throttle will not harm the clutch. The jerkiness could still be the result of clutch engagement that is not smooth due to the problems Brian mentioned.

Start her up and play with the throttle with her in neutral and see if you have any problems controlling the throttle. Will let you know if it is the throttle/engine or clutch engagement causing the problem. I suppose the throttle potentiometer could be wacky, and that is something a tech could check.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is offline  
post #12 of 24 Old 12-11-2012, 12:28 AM
Owner
 
mikegr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Greece
Ferrari Life Posts: 200
My 2000 F1 360 had a new clutch and whole transmission replaced by last owner. Now after 600 miles driven, the clutch works quite nice and smooth. After my mechanic adjusted manually the PIS, it behaves even better in all aspects. Quite a margin difference in performance from an updated F1 version
mikegr is offline  
post #13 of 24 Old 12-11-2012, 12:50 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
bisel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Scottsdale
Ferrari Life Posts: 419
Here is update on my experience with the car bucking or kangaroo hopping.

I visited the shop that works on the car and discussed the characteristics and Andy was quite familiar with the issue. As explained to me, it is caused by a combination of things ... incorrect clutch engagement, worn clutch ... and, of course, driving technique.

So, a quick examination of the car was performed. One aspect was that at idle (about 1050 rpm) and in first gear, the car was just creeping slowly ahead. The tech suggested that a small adjustment to the PIS setting might be in order. His advice was that the clutch should just start to engage at about 1100 rpm. With the SD2 in hand he plugged it in and we went for drive. We stopped on a level surface and adjusted the PIS so at 1050 rpm, the car did not creep ahead and at 1100 rpm the clutch started to engage. I drove it around for a bit and I noticed a bit of improvement. The car was less sensitive and the kangaroo hopping did not occur so easily ... but, when one knows how to induce this, you can certainly get to do it.

So, we changed the PIS from 4.60 to 4.68 and have left it at that for now. I also received some guidance on driving technique with very similar advice that Taz and others have posted in this thread.

Bottom line ... that small change to the PIS and the car is less sensitive than it was ... which is good. I have received some guidance on changing my driving habits. I am learning what is causing the bucking action and am better prepared with the appropriate measures to make it stop. And, I am getting an education on how to prevent this from happening by further development of my driving skills.

Total cost so far to try to correct this "problem" ... $0 for the PIS adjustment and a bit of humble pie that I am consuming learning that driving a Ferrari is a bit different than my previous cars.

I am feeling much more comfortable now and I appreciate the sound advice that others on this forum have provided. If I have any other experiences that I feel are noteworthy I will post further updates.

Regards,

Steve

Last edited by bisel; 12-11-2012 at 12:58 PM.
bisel is offline  
post #14 of 24 Old 12-11-2012, 12:59 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Steve- Glad you are making progress. Will not take long before it is second nature.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is offline  
post #15 of 24 Old 12-11-2012, 01:30 PM
Owner
 
StefVan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Switzerland
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,343
Good news Steve! I'll hope you'll enjoy your 360 much better now
StefVan is online now  
post #16 of 24 Old 12-11-2012, 01:39 PM
Owner
 
BluNart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New England, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 479
Nice work Steve. Then just as you get steady with the trottle & comfortable with the F1 setup, TRACK TIME! A whole new driving experience that in your region shouldn't be hard to find a casual track day. Suggest taking a lesson or two first as a passanger if you're still holding a heavy foot, them corners come up quick.
BluNart is offline  
post #17 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 09:22 PM
Owner
 
CozFCar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Texas
Ferrari Life Posts: 41
Friends,

I have an 04 F1, recent gear oil and F1 fluid changed and very little clutch wear

One issue that I noted and seeking advice for the follwing:
When I shift from 2 nd gear to 3rd gear at 5000 RPM or greater I notice the shift are a bit rough/jerky
This does not happen all the time, not sure if I am reflexively letting off the gas or not. If the RPM's are lower 2-4000 I do not experience this at all - smooth shifts.

I saw in the above post Stef mentioned that an F1 shifting at higher RPM may not be smooth - does this sound like the issue I am experiencing?

Thanks in advance for you input.

Coz
CozFCar is offline  
post #18 of 24 Old 01-17-2013, 06:14 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
bisel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Scottsdale
Ferrari Life Posts: 419
That is my experience. Under rapid acceleration and high RPM, the shifts can be abrupt and not smooth. Under lower RPM and relaxed acceleration, they are normally smooth as butter.

Steve

Quote:
Originally Posted by CozFCar View Post
Friends,

I have an 04 F1, recent gear oil and F1 fluid changed and very little clutch wear

One issue that I noted and seeking advice for the follwing:
When I shift from 2 nd gear to 3rd gear at 5000 RPM or greater I notice the shift are a bit rough/jerky
This does not happen all the time, not sure if I am reflexively letting off the gas or not. If the RPM's are lower 2-4000 I do not experience this at all - smooth shifts.

I saw in the above post Stef mentioned that an F1 shifting at higher RPM may not be smooth - does this sound like the issue I am experiencing?

Thanks in advance for you input.

Coz
bisel is offline  
post #19 of 24 Old 01-17-2013, 07:07 AM
Owner
 
IDriveM5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Ohio
Ferrari Life Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisel View Post
That is my experience. Under rapid acceleration and high RPM, the shifts can be abrupt and not smooth. Under lower RPM and relaxed acceleration, they are normally smooth as butter.

Steve
My M5 does the same thing. Low RPM shifts are smooth, high RPM shifts feel like you're being punched in the back of the head. Of course, that car also has a progressively more "rapid" shift based on the transmission setting. I always keep it in 5 out of 6 because that seems to be the best shift speed for me...
IDriveM5 is offline  
post #20 of 24 Old 01-17-2013, 08:32 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Steve- If you read the owners manual, you will note it says that shifts are faster as the engine speed and throttle increase and minimum shift time is around 6000 rpm and higher. When in the higher rpm ranges, the F1 system assumes you are in a hurry and will bang the shifts home pretty aggressively, a lot like power shifts with a manual transmission, even though the F1 system does breathe the throttle. Min shift time on your 360 is 150 ms in Sport mode, which did not change for the CS or early F430. That is way, way faster than a manual shift. Cars like the Scud/16M and 599 GTO shift in as little as 60 ms, and that will really make a pop.

One of the grumps on the new dual clutch transmissions from Ferrari owners was that shifts were too smooth and the owners missed the old pop of the high rpm shifts with the dry clutch plate F1 systems. Changes were made on DCT actuation on later 458s because of that.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
Copyright 2012 ONE Media, Inc.
FerrariLife is independently run with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA
Ferrari for Sale | Maserati for Sale