360 Converting 430 Exhaust for 360 - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 30 Old 12-05-2012, 02:17 PM Thread Starter
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Converting 430 Exhaust for 360

After getting my 360, I wanted to upgrade the exhaust system (more aggressive sound) and I did a quick check of Tubi and Capistro for the 360:
- Tubi … $5120
- Capistro Twin Sound … $4950

I did not want to spend that much and I found there are several people who have modified a used Ferrari 430 exhaust system to re-use on the 360. From the various posts that I have seen on this and other forums, I had a somewhat unrealistic expectation that the modification would be a simple task. In fact, to make a quality installation, the modifications to the 430 exhaust system require TIG welding equipment and skills. So, I am having the mods performed by the shop that works on my car. The mods that are required are:

1. Two mounting brackets that are used on the 360 Challenge Stradale have to be purchased from Ferrari or locally manufactured to mount the 430 exhaust and tips on the 360. If manufacturing new mounting brackets, they must be made in a manner which allows for vertical height adjustment as in the 360 Challenge Stradale.

2. On each set of exhaust tips (left and right), both pipes need to be shortened in width and tip end of the primary pipe (the one without the bypass valve) needs to be extended to properly fit within the 360 grill opening in the rear bumper.

3. I will also be installing a manual override for the bypass valves to remain in the open position. This will allow the driver to select normal operational mode where the bypass valves are controlled by the engine ECU or manually where they remain open at all times. This is similar to the function that Capistro offers with their system.

The results are, IMO, outstanding. The 360 with the 430 exhaust sounds very similar to the 360 Challenge and better than a 360 with a Tubi. Have not been able to compare to 360 with Capistro. The total cost, including the cost of a used 430 muffler and tips, is much less than Tubi or Capistro. So to my question … it is my thought that now that I have worked with my techs, we have a good template to duplicate the cuts and welds on the exhaust tips and mounting brackets that might be an attractive option to duplicate for other 360 owners.



Thanks … Steve

Last edited by bisel; 12-07-2012 at 03:36 AM.
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post #2 of 30 Old 12-05-2012, 02:41 PM
 
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I am definitely interested in doing this as well. Thanks for sharing your experience thus far.

Matt
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post #3 of 30 Old 12-05-2012, 03:35 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tomcattmatt View Post
I am definitely interested in doing this as well. Thanks for sharing your experience thus far.

Matt
I will be updating this post with photos in the next couple of days.

Steve
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post #4 of 30 Old 12-05-2012, 03:50 PM
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Is this much different than the factory racing exhaust that was an available option on the 360?
Reason I ask is I think the racing exhaust can on the 360, while not the same part number, is similar if not the same as that of the 430.

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post #5 of 30 Old 12-05-2012, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Is this much different than the factory racing exhaust that was an available option on the 360?
Reason I ask is I think the racing exhaust can on the 360, while not the same part number, is similar if not the same as that of the 430.
I am not certain, but I believe that this setup (i.e., using the 430 exhaust) is very similar, if not the same, as the racing exhaust. There is big difference in the weight and size of the 430 muffler (smaller and lighter) compared to the standard 360 muffler. The 360 muffler is so wide that it has an expansion joint incorporated into the design. The 430 exhaust does not. The 360 muffler attaches directly to the cats whereas the 430 muffler does not. The bypass pipe for the 360 systems attaches to the muffler whereas the bypass pipe on the 430 exhaust attaches directly to the cat. In bypass mode, the 430 system is louder than the 360 so I assume the 360 muffler partially muffles the bypass gases whereas the 430 muffler does not even come into play when in bypass mode.

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post #6 of 30 Old 12-06-2012, 01:27 AM
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Why dont get an OEM brand new racing exhaust and get done with it? IT wont cost much more

Ferrari 360 Spyder F1 Gearbox Racing Exhaust System | eBay
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post #7 of 30 Old 12-06-2012, 03:06 AM Thread Starter
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Why dont get an OEM brand new racing exhaust and get done with it? IT wont cost much more

Ferrari 360 Spyder F1 Gearbox Racing Exhaust System | eBay
At $3600 with shipping, that is less costly than my initial inquiry and certainly less work than modifying the 430 system. I would guess that the total cost of buying that new racing exhaust system would run about $2000 more than my project .... but in the grand scheme of things that is not bad. For sure, that option is probably superior to a Tubi or Capistro.

Steve
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post #8 of 30 Old 12-06-2012, 09:31 PM
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with the OEM racing exhaust don't you need a ECU reflash ? that would add costs to it if you do, I assume with the 430 exhaust you don't.
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post #9 of 30 Old 12-07-2012, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
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Detailed Experience Converting to 430 Exhaust with Pics

First, I want to acknowledge the help from the pros at FMS in Fountain Hill, AZ, Andy and Jon have superlative skills were great to work with. They are my trusted resources for all things Italian.

I purchased my 360 about 2 months ago with a stock exhaust. Although sounding nice, I wanted something with a more aggressive sound. I looked at Tubi and other aftermarket systems, but the technician that I have begun using, recommended installing a 430 exhaust … lower cost and good sound. And, as I understand it, the 360 Challenge Stradale uses this muffler. There were several posts of others who took this course and the comments were positive … so I decided to go this route.
The next step was to take the car to the shop to have Andy and Jon exchange the exhaust systems. I read several posts that explained the process, but lacking the equipment for welding and manufacturing small parts, and I admit, the skill / experience, I decided to let the pros do this process.

The first step was to remove the rear bumper to gain access to the exhaust system. Once exposed, removing the stock exhaust system was a simple process. Once removed, the 430 muffler was put in place and the 430 exhaust tips were installed to observe what modifications would be required.

The first obvious requirement was to provide an alternative mounting method to install the system on the 360. The mounts that came with the 430 system to support the exhaust system on the transmission housing would not work as they interfere with the installation of the rear bumper. The stock 360 has a horizontal steel bar to directly mount the muffler / tips assembly. The 360 Challenge Stradale uses the same 430 muffler and has a similar horizontal bar but uses two small right angle mounting brackets to then support the CS muffler / tips. These mounting brackets could be used on the 360 Modena, but they cost about $250 each. Andy and Jon decided they could fabricate a pair mounting brackets themselves that would be much less costly. It took them about an hour to weld up a pair of brackets and drill mounting holes to support the muffler / exhaust tips and provide slotted holes to mount the brackets to the horizontal support bar that would then allow vertical height adjustment. The result is a solution that duplicates the Ferrari 360 CS mounting hardware.

The next step was to modify the exhaust tips to allow installation of the rear bumper with the exhaust tips exiting the bumper at the original grill opening. This required cutting the pipes to the appropriate length and welding the tips back in position. One needs a TIG welder for this as the tips are stainless steel. This process takes a bit of time and requires a skilled craftsman with the welder. Although small, adjustments had to be made in length and vertical position. Jon and Andy did a good job with this. The process involved cutting, fitting, tack welding, checking the fit by installing the rear bumper, adjust as required and making the final welds. In addition to adjusting the overall width (dimension from mounting flange to outer tip, the primary pipe (the one without the bypass valve) needed to have the tip end extended a few inches to have the exhaust tip itself extend beyond the rear bumper . The 430 bumper has more of a sweep at this point and the stock 430 muffler tips sit more to the rear of the inboard tip. In addition, as we were using the stock 430 exhaust tips, the overall diameter is larger than the stock 360 tips and we wanted to make sure that the tips were not inside the bumper enclosure as we did not want heat buildup in the summer to potentially damage the paint or plastic bumper.

Once the exhaust tips were modified, they were removed and bead blasted to restore the matt finish to the exhaust tips. Clear high-temp paint was applied to protect the finish. The tips were reinstalled and rear bumper was replaced.

One feature I wanted was the ability to alter the sound level from soft to loud. I installed two relays near each of the bypass valve vacuum control solenoids located near the tail lights. Using the relays, allows for only a single conductor to be routed to inside the passenger compartment as a control for the vacuum solenoids. In the normally closed position (relays power off), the ECU controls the bypass valves. When the relays are energized, the circuit to the vacuum control solenoids is interrupted which will release the vacuum and the bypass valves will remain open.

The end result is a very satisfactory set up. The sound is much better than the stock 360 exhaust. From the cars with Tubi systems that I have heard, I prefer the 430 system on the 360. And I can control the bypass valves independently from the ECU.

The total cost is less than a new Tubi or Capistro, but the results are, in my opinion, equal or better for a lower overall cost.

Regards,

Steve
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Last edited by bisel; 12-07-2012 at 02:00 PM.
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post #10 of 30 Old 12-07-2012, 12:28 PM
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I know that some dealers in US offer ECU tune plus OEM racing exhaust for 4k fitted. That sounds very good doesn't?
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post #11 of 30 Old 12-07-2012, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
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Adding last rear view of car

Here is final photo ... rear view of car with modified F430 exhaust installed and am also attaching schematic of the circuit logic to toggle the bypass valves off and on.

NOTE: I corrected the schematic that was actually used. My prior post had an error ... this attachment is correct.

Regards,

Steve
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Last edited by bisel; 12-07-2012 at 08:57 PM.
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post #12 of 30 Old 12-07-2012, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikegr View Post
I know that some dealers in US offer ECU tune plus OEM racing exhaust for 4k fitted. That sounds very good doesn't?
Don't know about dealers installing complete exhaust and ECU mod for $4000.

I saw a complete 360 "Racing" exhaust for sale on e-bay for $3000. It is not really the racing exhaust as it has valves. But, that said, it looks very much like F430 exhaust. The e-bay listing also showed two ECUs ... one wonders why they include the ECUs, what they are supposed to do and also how they can sell two ECUs and the complete exhaust set up for only $3000. That said, it seems a like deal ... maybe too good a deal.

With regard to the ECU mods ... I don't what they are and don't know why one would need it ... maybe it changes when the exhaust bypass valves move from closed to open. The configuration that I have is just fine with the stock ECU which opens the bypass valves around 4500 to 5000 rpm.

Regards,

Steve
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post #13 of 30 Old 12-08-2012, 01:25 AM
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That looks like a quality conversion and I like the brackets that allow the use of the stock mounting bracket. However, why on earth didn't they mount the tips horizontal? The sloping tips look dreadful (only my opinion of course).
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post #14 of 30 Old 12-08-2012, 06:06 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by voicey View Post
That looks like a quality conversion and I like the brackets that allow the use of the stock mounting bracket. However, why on earth didn't they mount the tips horizontal? The sloping tips look dreadful (only my opinion of course).
.

Actually, I like the offset. Purely subjective as you stated.

Steve

Last edited by bisel; 12-08-2012 at 06:18 AM.
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post #15 of 30 Old 12-08-2012, 06:12 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voicey View Post
That looks like a quality conversion and I like the brackets that allow the use of the stock mounting bracket. However, why on earth didn't they mount the tips horizontal? The sloping tips look dreadful (only my opinion of course).
.

The genesis of the offset is that it was thought at first that the offset would be required to properly fit the larger diameter F430 pipes within the grill opening. As it turns out, that was not required, but decided to leave it as is, as I thought it looked fine. Of course, if peer pressure is too great and I offend too many within the Ferrari community, it would be a fairly minor adjustment to align them horizontally

.

Steve

Last edited by bisel; 12-08-2012 at 08:59 AM.
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post #16 of 30 Old 12-08-2012, 09:39 AM
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its a exhaust system, its looks great.

anyone that tells you otherwise just tell them to get a faster car and get in front of you.
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post #17 of 30 Old 12-08-2012, 05:22 PM
 
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Thank you so much for posting these photos! How does it sound??

I prefer the horizontal tips as well.

Thanks again,
Matt
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post #18 of 30 Old 12-08-2012, 08:40 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tomcattmatt View Post
Thank you so much for posting these photos! How does it sound??

I prefer the horizontal tips as well.

Thanks again,
Matt
It sounds great. In normal mode, i.e., the ECUs control the bypass valves, the sound is subdued. More agressive than the stock 360 sound. Deeper tone, but subdued and legal. When you press hard on the accelerator, at about 5000 rpm or so the bypass valves open and the beast wails. When I interrupt the circuit with my control switch, i.e., force the bypass valves to remain open at all times, the sound is wonderfully addictive. Low rpm rumbling, you get to clearly hear the double-clutch revs when down shifting, and by the way, the beast now downright howls even louder as the valves are open all the time and you don't have any lag in their opening when pushing the pedal toward the metal.

I'm an old fart and this reminds me of my youth. I guess I never really grew up. My brother wants me to make a video with sound and post on YouTube. I'll work on that.

Last edited by bisel; 12-08-2012 at 09:49 PM.
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post #19 of 30 Old 12-09-2012, 12:09 PM
 
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It's better to never grow up, and definitely record a video. There aren't many on Youtube with the 430 exhaust.

Also,

You mentioned you had a control switch. i am assuming that doesn't come with the 430 exhaust. Can you point me in the direction of how you did the ECU and Control Switch? (I don't want my neighbors to hate me.)

Matt

Last edited by tomcattmatt; 12-09-2012 at 01:13 PM.
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post #20 of 30 Old 12-09-2012, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcattmatt View Post
It's better to never grow up, and definitely record a video. There aren't many on Youtube with the 430 exhaust.

Also,

You mentioned you had a control switch. i am assuming that doesn't come with the 430 exhaust. Can you point me in the direction of how you did the ECU and Control Switch? (I don't want my neighbors to hate me.)

Matt
Hi Matt,

No, the control switch does not come with anything. Maybe Capistro .. they provide a remote control fob to toggle the bypass valves. And, I made no modification to the ECU for any of this. In effect, the 360 ECU will control the exhaust bypass no differently than it does now. And, I too wanted to maintain harmony with my neighbors.

Here is how I did it ...

Look at the photo I am attaching. This is the left side, but the right side is similar. You need to purchase two automotive control relays and I recommend a pair of wiring harnesses as well. I bought four 30/40 Amp relays and wiring harnesses on Amazon.com for $5 ... see attached photo.

There are two leads going to the bypass valve control solenoid that come from the ECU. One is constant power (purple) and one is switched ground (yellow/blue). Your colors may vary. You need to splice into the constant power to provide power to the coil side of the relay. I used terminal #85 on the relays as the positive side. The negative side of the relay coil is then tied to the same as the other solenoid. I used #86 as the negative side of the relay coil. Since the mount for the relay is so close to your splice points, I did not fuse these leads.

You then need to cut the negative side lead of the solenoid (the yellow/blue wire) and connect that to the normally closed switch of the relay. This usually indicated as terminal 30 on the relay. Then connect the corresponding terminal, #87A, back to the solenoid. So when the relay is NOT energized, this circuit is complete and the ECU will control the bypass valve. When the relay is energized, this circuit is broken which then keeps the bypass valves in the OPEN position.


Now back to wiring the relay coil to your control switch. You will be controlling both relays with a single switch. So you wire the relay coils terminals (#86) together and then route a single conductor to the passenger compartment. This conductor is routed behind the left side panel inside the engine bay following the wiring harness that you will see that goes into the passenger compartment. You do not need to fuse this conductor as you on the negative side of the relay.

Now, what to do with this wire once inside the passenger compartment. I have a 360 Modena which has two blank panels in the center console with the hood (bonnet) release switch and the fuel door release switch. I used one of those blanks to mount my control switch. If you have a Spider, those panels are occupied, in which case you may have a blank position on your dash … maybe to the left of the steering column. But that position will require routing the wire to the back side of the dashboard.

You have two choices for a switch. You can get a Ferrari switch and use it (expect to pay $50 to $80 for a used switch and several hundred $$ for a new one). Make sure you get a latched switch and not a momentary-on switch. For example, the switch called the “Sport” or one that might be used to control lights (e.g., rear fog lights) will work fine. Do not get the ASR switch as that is a momentary on switch. I elected to use a non-Ferrari SPST toggle switch and mount in in the center console. Take the wire you routed from the engine bay, connect one side to a terminal on the control switch and the other terminal to any ground on the car to complete the circuit. When the control switch is open (i.e., in the OFF position), the ECU will control the bypass valves. When you close the switch, you are actually interrupting the circuit to the vacuum solenoids and leaving the bypass open all the time.

In an earlier post I included a schematic on how to connect the relay to the control solenoids. Check out that schematic. If you have difficulty, any competent automotive mechanic should be able to follow the logic.

Good luck.

Note the image of the mounting position of the relays is with the rear bumper removed.

Steve
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Last edited by bisel; 12-09-2012 at 08:49 PM.
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