360 Converting 430 Exhaust for 360 - Page 2 - Ferrari Life
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post #21 of 30 Old 01-23-2013, 10:30 AM
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Any pics of your switch installed in the car?

In the F430's and Scuderia's / 16M's many people have done a similar setup and added a "Sport" switch in the blank next to the hood opening switch.

Sounds like you have figured out how Ferrari of Seattle does their setup and charges $1200 for it!

Any pics of how and where you ran the cables into the car would be nice to see.

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Last edited by markjayw; 01-23-2013 at 11:41 PM.
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post #22 of 30 Old 01-23-2013, 12:46 PM
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Steve, you did an excellent job on your exhaust. I always have a lot of esteem for people who “dare” to improve their Ferrari

If you don’t mind, here’s a bit more info regarding the exhaust valve management. The Motronic ECU’s are only controlling the negative wire (Pin A-19) while the positive wire goes straight to a 15A fuse. The solenoid valve are thus permanently connected to the positive and the Motronic ECU’s trigger just the ground. When you add a relay, it’s going to work fine but this will store one or several DTC's in the ECU’s because the ECU’s will find out that there is no power consumption (when the valves should be open and closed). The relay coils will consume a bit current but not as much as the solenoid valves. The stored DTC’s would be P0475 or even P0477 and P0478 but they should not trigger a CEL.

That’s the difference actually with the Capristo remote controllable unit. This unit has quite a bit electronics that makes the ECU’s believe the solenoid valves are still there when they are bypassed and this whatever the ECU’s decide to open them or not. Indeed, the ECU’s check the solenoid valves permanently, open and closed (or powered and not powered).

But if you’re fine with the DTC’s, your solution is very good

Just another tip, a very important one: I really should add a flyback protection diode between ground and positive of the coil. Coils are also inductors and create quite big voltage spikes when the current is turned off. The stored coil field energy has to go somewhere. Such spikes can easily reach 100's V and more. As you’re using the ground signal directly coming from the ECU, that would seriously put your ECU in danger. Really, seriously consider it as this will save your expensive ECU’s. All you need is a decent 50V diode between – and + of the coil (cathode/ring on the + side). To isolate even better your relay from the ECU, I would certainly add a resistor or zener in series with the protection diode to use up the energy quicker.
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post #23 of 30 Old 01-23-2013, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StefVan View Post
Steve, you did an excellent job on your exhaust. I always have a lot of esteem for people who “dare” to improve their Ferrari

If you don’t mind, here’s a bit more info regarding the exhaust valve management. The Motronic ECU’s are only controlling the negative wire (Pin A-19) while the positive wire goes straight to a 15A fuse. The solenoid valve are thus permanently connected to the positive and the Motronic ECU’s trigger just the ground. When you add a relay, it’s going to work fine but this will store one or several DTC's in the ECU’s because the ECU’s will find out that there is no power consumption (when the valves should be open and closed). The relay coils will consume a bit current but not as much as the solenoid valves. The stored DTC’s would be P0475 or even P0477 and P0478 but they should not trigger a CEL.

That’s the difference actually with the Capristo remote controllable unit. This unit has quite a bit electronics that makes the ECU’s believe the solenoid valves are still there when they are bypassed and this whatever the ECU’s decide to open them or not. Indeed, the ECU’s check the solenoid valves permanently, open and closed (or powered and not powered).

But if you’re fine with the DTC’s, your solution is very good

Just another tip, a very important one: I really should add a flyback protection diode between ground and positive of the coil. Coils are also inductors and create quite big voltage spikes when the current is turned off. The stored coil field energy has to go somewhere. Such spikes can easily reach 100's V and more. As you’re using the ground signal directly coming from the ECU, that would seriously put your ECU in danger. Really, seriously consider it as this will save your expensive ECU’s. All you need is a decent 50V diode between – and + of the coil (cathode/ring on the + side). To isolate even better your relay from the ECU, I would certainly add a resistor or zener in series with the protection diode to use up the energy quicker.

Hi Stef, so let me draw out what I believe you are suggesting:

First, to compensate for the inductive feedback of the relays, you are suggesting that I connect a diode and resister between the - and + side of the relay coils that I used. I modified the circuit diagram to indicate that ONLY a negative signal is coming from the ECU and added the flyback diode and resistance as I believe you are suggesting (in red) ... Is this correct?

But I need to add, that the current for the relay coil is not the negative side coming from the ECU. I am drawing current off the positive side of the exhaust bypass valve. The negative side of the exhaust bypass valve ... which is being delivered by the ECU ... is only connected to the normally closed contact of the relay. It is not used to energize the relay coil. So maybe, I don't need a flyback diode??

Second, you mention that the ECU may trigger DTC's because they will sense no current flow when I throw my switch ... which actually opens the circuit to the exhaust bypass valve solenoids. Is there something that can be added to circuit to "fool" the ECU into thinking that current is flowing to the exhaust bypass solenoids when in fact there is not?

Regards,

Steve
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Last edited by bisel; 01-24-2013 at 12:24 AM.
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post #24 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 12:11 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjayw View Post
Any pics of your switch installed in the car?

In the F430's and Scuderia's / 16M's many people have done a similar setup and added a "Sport" switch in the blank next to the hood opening switch.

Sounds like you have figured out how Ferrari of Seattle does their setup and charges $1200 for it!

Any pics of how and where you ran the cables into the car would be nice to see.
Hi, earlier in the thread I included pics of where I installed the relays. I cannot give you a photo of the wire routing, but will describe.

I routed a single wire (see drawing in my reply to Stef) up the left side of the engine bay. I first remvoed the metal panel on the left side. There are several wires behind that panel and some of them go into the passenger compartment. Just follow them and you will see they go behind the driver seat. Just remove the panel behind the driver seat and you can snake the wire up into there. I just cable tied the wire I was using to the bundle to keep it neat and tidy. If you have a coupe (not a spyder) you can stop there if you like and use the blank that is just behind the gas door and front bonnet release. I chose to continue to route the wire through the center console up under the dash, over the steering column to the left side where there are three switches and one blank position. I acquired a fog light switch. You can also use a "Sport" switch. Any switch that latches and is not a momentary close type. The wire that I routed to switch goes to one side of the switch and the I then simply grounded the other side.

Before you do any this, Stef has given some advice about a protection circuit for the relay voltage spike that may be seen across the inductive load of the relays when the voltage is suddenly removed.

Steve
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Last edited by bisel; 01-24-2013 at 08:37 AM.
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post #25 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 06:37 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by StefVan View Post
... When you add a relay, itís going to work fine but this will store one or several DTC's in the ECUís because the ECUís will find out that there is no power consumption (when the valves should be open and closed). The relay coils will consume a bit current but not as much as the solenoid valves. The stored DTCís would be P0475 or even P0477 and P0478 but they should not trigger a CEL ...
Hi Stef, I put my OBD II tester on the car and did not have any DTC's to download. Now, I do realize that my tester is not state of the art, but in your experience, will a common off the shelf OBD II tester read those codes if they exist?

Regards,

Steve
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post #26 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 11:36 AM
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Hi Steve,
You're very right about the ECU ground signal for the solenoid valves. Your relay coil is using it's own ground and not the one coming from the ECU. Sorry, I must have been a bit too tired last night But I would still add a flyback protection diode to protect any vehicule electronics. But check your automotive relay, maybe it has already one integrated. Any decent vehicule relay usually has such diode. Unprotected relay coils in vehicules can be a real nightmare

Regarding the DTC's, I don't think that a usual OBD reader will be able to read them but a SDX definitely will.

Best,
Stef
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post #27 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by StefVan View Post
...But I would still add a flyback protection diode to protect any vehicule electronics. But check your automotive relay, maybe it has already one integrated. Any decent vehicule relay usually has such diode. Unprotected relay coils in vehicules can be a real nightmare ...
Hi Stef,

The relay does not have the diode. But, I can easily bridge the relay socket pins with a diode -- pin # 85 and #86 -- those are the pins for the relay coil. A simple diode with say a 50v rating only cost $1 or $2 at the local electronics store. From what I have read, and also your suggestion, if using a simple diode, then the optimal solution is to include a resistance in series with the diode (like maybe 200 ohm). As I understand the purpose of the resistor is to bleed off inductance more rapidly and provide more rapid release of the relay, but is it really necessary in this application? What I am thinking is that installing just a single component like the diode across the pins is simple, where as to include a resistor is a bit more involved.

(next time I install a relay, I will make certain to have a diode protection built in)

Thanks,

Steve
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post #28 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 09:32 PM
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Hi Steve,
As the relay coil is not directly behind the ECU, you won't need the resistor or Zener, well it's less critical I woukd say. The resistor helps to cover the forward drop V of the diode. If you use a Scottky, you'll almost integrating the small resistor because suc diodes have a very low forward drop of only 0.2V. They are also very fast in recovering reversed voltages.
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post #29 of 30 Old 02-21-2013, 12:08 PM
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Bisel,

Thanks a million for the info!

Could you please tell me a little more about how to run a wire through the engine firewall? I know it is behind the driver's seat but where is the actual passageway for the wire and where does it come through the firewall???

Thanks!
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post #30 of 30 Old 02-21-2013, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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Could you please tell me a little more about how to run a wire through the engine firewall? I know it is behind the driver's seat but where is the actual passageway for the wire and where does it come through the firewall???
Hi Rob,

There are a couple wires that run through there. In the panel behind the driver seat there is the TCU and some other components. Using the wires that are already routed through the firewall, I just pushed the wire I was routing through an existing grommet.

Regards,

Steve
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