360 360 F1 Conversion to 6spd - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 109 Old 10-22-2012, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
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360 F1 Conversion to 6spd

Hello all, I am in the midst of a project, and unfortunately I do not have access to a 3 pedal 360 to obtain the info I need. I was hoping someone could perform these simple tests and post the result.

If the car is placed in neutral, and you attempt to start the car without depressing the clutch, does the motor crank? If so, does it start?

If anyone is inclined to try the above in gear, or has previously done this by accident, those results too would be helpful.

I am in the midst of a conversion project, and I am trying to understand exactly what the clutch pedal switch actually acts upon. Simply looking at the wiring diagram is leaving me with as many questions as answers.

Thank you in advance for any input. I appreciate you taking the time to perform the "test'.

Kind regards

Rich
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post #2 of 109 Old 10-22-2012, 01:11 PM
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Hi Rich,
The 360/430 manuals will start if the clutch is pressed or depressed, even with a gear engaged oups! Do you mind to share what your conversion project is about? Converting a F1 into a manual?

Last edited by StefVan; 10-22-2012 at 01:18 PM.
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post #3 of 109 Old 10-22-2012, 05:46 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Stef, yes I am converting a 360 from an F1 to manual. I am starting with a 360 and then will do a 430 for a close friend. The 430 is more complex, so starting with the 360 will introduce the methods.
With the help of Eric355 I have it mostly worked out ( the electronics). The mechanical is an easy direct exchange of parts which I already have. The clutch switch has me puzzled, Eric concluded ( and I agree) it connects to the Motronics, but I am not sure of its purpose. I am going to connect it, but I don't like doing things I don't fully understand.
I am starting the complete conversion soon, and will post pix and instructions while I do it. I realize some people will love this, and some will hate this. One interesting note, I was told by my local Ferrari dealer that if the conversion is done properly, the Ferrari factory will recognize the conversion and update the cars history/file. This is a service to me, and any future potential owner of my car. I was a very experienced mechanic, and though that was in a previous life, I have kept up on the technology, so this is not too difficult for me.
So far, with Eric's help I was able to run the car after completely removing the TCU. This was the info I required before fully commiting. This conversion is fully reversible.

So you say the clutch switch does not act to "lock out" the starter motor? That is what we thought, but then what is it's function?

Thank you

Rich
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post #4 of 109 Old 10-22-2012, 09:43 PM
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Off of memory, if the car was in neutral, I used to be able to start the 360 without putting my foot on either the clutch or the brake.
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post #5 of 109 Old 10-22-2012, 10:14 PM
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Rich, that's nice job I think that the clutch signal is used by the Motronics to cut off the power in wet/ice mode to avoid having micro locks of the rear wheels when the clutch is released. Without it, and with high engine torque, the car would unavoidably spin with little tire adherence.
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post #6 of 109 Old 10-23-2012, 09:57 AM
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You can start the F1 cars in neutral without having your foot on the brake, too. At least you can on my 575M.

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post #7 of 109 Old 10-23-2012, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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Yes Stef, I agree with your potential explanation. As I said previously, I was surprised to hear that it tied into the motronics. Eric pointed this out, and I spent hours reviewing the wiring diagram. Being I have the schematics on CD and downloaded, it really can be difficult to follow the flow without printing out multiple pages. I also wondered if it were possibly some sort of over rev protection being the car is drive by wire. Anyway, my initial assumption ( incorrect) was it the switch was a simple starter lock out. Also when I started the car without the TCU installed, I received no check OK, and a solid check engine light, although the car ran perfectly. When I reinstalled the TCU, all functions returned to normal, and the CEL went out.
I am installing a factory "sport exhaust" which comes with new motronics, which are transmission specific. Installing manual trans motronics should eliminate most troubles. I am very excited to get this done. I am more concerned with converting my friends 430, as I am sure the ediff will complicate things a bit. The one encouraging thing is the factory made these cars both ways, so it will be reasonably possible. I expect to start posting pix of the details soon.
Thanks again for your input.
And yes Taz, I was considering the fact that you pointed out about f1 starting in gear. That seems to occur by the pump applying pressure to the throw out bearing which disengages the clutch, and satisfies the TCU to emit a signal to the start relay.
I will say, I am having a lot of fun learning the inner workings of this car. I have learned things that I didn't even intend to!
Anyway, I do appreciate the help and comments from everyone. If it were not for the people I have "met" thru these forums, my project would be so much more difficult!

Thank you!
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post #8 of 109 Old 10-23-2012, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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Taz, my long winded explanation was incorrect in how it pertained to your statement. But your statement does shed more light.

Thank you
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post #9 of 109 Old 10-23-2012, 08:17 PM
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Rich- Whenever an F1 car is stopped, the clutch is disengaged when the car is running and there is hydraulic pressure from the F1 pump, regardless of whether it is in gear or neutral. When you open the door with the engine off, the F1 pump pressurizes, but the car does not select neutral until you send a start command if you are still in gear. No idea if it will start with 1st or Rev gear selected or not without the brake, because I always put her in neutral before starting. With neutral selected, though, she will start without having your foot on the brake.

Matched you for word count there.

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post #10 of 109 Old 10-23-2012, 10:00 PM
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Rich, we'll always try to help and I do like your project One reason you'll have CEL and Check NOK at ignition is that the instrument panel ECU is configured for a F1 and can't find the corresponding TCU on the C CAN bus. You'll need a SD2 to reconfigure the instrument panel node by setting the transmission type to Manual. I don't know on the 360 but on the 430, you'll have also to deal with the brake light because there is a double check made by the TCU in addition to the Motronics. Both receive the electrical brake signal but they check also if BRAKE ON is correctly broadcasted on the C CAN bus. If there is a difference, you'll get an alarm.
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post #11 of 109 Old 10-24-2012, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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I must say, I love the knowledge base here! Stef, once again, thank you. I did not think this project would be completed without some help from a SD2. I called Canada today and spoke with a fellow who is attempting to get me one from Italy. I could not find one for sale locally. Yes, I know they cost quite a bit, but my thought was after I was done, I could always sell it for near what I pay. The SD3 is more than twice the price, so I requested SD2. If I can't find one in time, I can get the dealer to reset parameters, but it would be so much more convenient doing it on my time schedule.
Being at the moment I am concerned with the 360's systems, is there any alternative to the possibilities I prevoiusly mentioned? Leonardo seems to be near 24000 usd and I can't justify that for 2 uses. I have seen a company called TEXA that has some sort of reasonably priced diagnostic tool (approx 5100usd with Ferrari software), but I can't find too much info about how their product works. I know the SD2 will work.

One more question at this point, being I am changing the Motronics from F1 to manual, will there be any conflict with the immobilzer?

Thank you all again for the input. I should start posting the conversion pix as they occur next week.
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post #12 of 109 Old 10-24-2012, 10:13 PM
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Rich- Should not be a problem with the immobilizer, which does not care as long as it sees the correct ID and rolling code from the fob (or PIN and key actuations). It then sends a signal to the Motronic DME that it is ok to start. Works the same for F1 and three pedals regardless of clutch and brake position.

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post #13 of 109 Old 10-25-2012, 04:46 AM
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Thanks Rich

I have the Texa and it won't set any instrument panel parameters, only read only on the 430. Your best option would be indeed to source a SD2
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post #14 of 109 Old 10-25-2012, 10:06 AM
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Rich- The SD2 is definitely the best answer since the SD3 acutally uses an SD2 emulate mode for the earlier cars. I have not seen a significant difference in price between SD2s and SD3s, since most of the pro shops kept their SD2s because they are so much better on the earlier cars with OBDII.

Taz
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Last edited by tazandjan; 10-25-2012 at 10:46 AM.
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post #15 of 109 Old 10-25-2012, 06:09 PM Thread Starter
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Taz, thank you very much on both answers. I am glad that the immobilizer is not a concern. I have new 6 speed motronics on the way ( with a CS exhaust too!).

I will keep searching for an SD2, and maybe the man from Canada will come up with one. If not, I can always have the dealership set the parameters at the end. I always like owning equipment, and doing things myself, but sometimes it isn't practical.

Stef, thank you for the confirmation on the TEXA. I watched a partial demo on youtube, and it didn't appear to do what I needed. Thank you for confirming this. I must say, sometimes these projects are very broad reaching! I am having a good time with it though, and in the end, I will really like this car. If I get bored with rowing myself, I can go back to F1!
I intend to start posting pix this weekend. Hopefully the mega storm Hurricane Sandy that is set to land in my back yard does not slow me down!

Once again guys, you are great!!!


Thank you!!

Rich
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post #16 of 109 Old 10-25-2012, 08:37 PM
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Rich- Leonardo is the other alternative, but not sure it will do what you want, either.

Taz
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post #17 of 109 Old 11-04-2012, 12:07 AM
 
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Rich,

i am exited to see someone attempting this as a future 360 owner. There are just not enough manuals trannys on the used market. I have been looking since June and can't seem to find the right combination. I look fwd to reading more about your progress. Would you be willing to share the costs that have gone into this project at the end? I know my answer already of should i buy F1 or manual: i should buy what i really want. Thats the manual tranny so i spose i just keep waiting for the right car best of luck!
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post #18 of 109 Old 11-04-2012, 07:06 AM
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Worldwide, ~28% of the 360s had manual shifters. As everyone knows, the transmission and clutch are identical on the F1 and manual shifter F1 cars.

Taz
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Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
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post #19 of 109 Old 11-05-2012, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redlightrich View Post
Taz, thank you very much on both answers. I am glad that the immobilizer is not a concern. I have new 6 speed motronics on the way ( with a CS exhaust too!).

I will keep searching for an SD2, and maybe the man from Canada will come up with one. If not, I can always have the dealership set the parameters at the end. I always like owning equipment, and doing things myself, but sometimes it isn't practical.

Stef, thank you for the confirmation on the TEXA. I watched a partial demo on youtube, and it didn't appear to do what I needed. Thank you for confirming this. I must say, sometimes these projects are very broad reaching! I am having a good time with it though, and in the end, I will really like this car. If I get bored with rowing myself, I can go back to F1!
I intend to start posting pix this weekend. Hopefully the mega storm Hurricane Sandy that is set to land in my back yard does not slow me down!

Once again guys, you are great!!!


Thank you!!

Rich
Dont think TEXA will be able to do what you need. If you are going to do a 430 next you will need an SD3, the SD2 doesn't support the later cars. The SD3 is a better bet than the SD2 as it does so much more, and uses identical software to the SD2 through porting on the earlier cars. Be aware there are a lot of fake units, and also ones which have timed out and are thus useless. The Leonardo is currently plagued with issues, so i wouldn't look at one of those either!
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post #20 of 109 Old 11-05-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
Worldwide, ~28% of the 360s had manual shifters. As everyone knows, the transmission and clutch are identical on the F1 and manual shifter F1 cars.
now that is a cool stat that I have been hoping to uncover myself.

Given the ratio of Spider's vs couple was identical, could we assume that the 28% figure would follow suite in a linear fashion - ie, only 28% of the total Spider's produced were 3 peddle? Shorten the list down from LHD vs RHD and then the number of cars in wrecks, and it would appear that a well sorted 3 peddle spider is rare indeed...with only a few hundred world wide.

Great information!
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