F430 430 Scuderia service and wheel alignments, before and after… - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 31 Old 04-22-2012, 03:43 AM Thread Starter
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430 Scuderia service and wheel alignments, before and after…

My car just came back from its first 10 000 Km service and everything looks just fine. Clutch and brakes in perfect order and everything else checked. Made an extra leak test of the headers, for peace of mind but since it is a Scuderia I am not really sure it is necessary, anyway no leak :-)

Haven’t really driven the car enough to draw any conclusions about the alignment, but I thought it was very stable at high speeds. As you will see shortly there’s an explanation to that…

This is the before and after data for the car. The before data is without me in the car and the after is with the weighted down.

Front left before
Camber -0,99°
Toe 1,2 mm
Caster 5,87°

Front left after (with weight)
Camber -1,79°
Toe 0,5 mm
Caster 5,91°

Front right before
Camber -1,19°
Toe 2,8 mm
Caster 6,12°

Front right after (with weight)
Camber -1,85°
Toe 0,4 mm
Caster 6,04°

Note: Total Toe-in before adjustment 4.0 mm!!! No wonder it was stable in a straight line…

Rear left before
Camber -1,52°
Toe 1,3 mm

Rear left after (with weight)
Camber -2,45°
Toe 2,0 mm

Rear right before
Camber -1,56°
Toe 2,2 mm

Rear right after (with weight)
Camber -2,50°
Toe 2,0 mm

Ferrari 430 Scuderia 2008/12
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -99)
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -98)
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post #2 of 31 Old 04-22-2012, 04:49 AM
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Wow! Thanks for the figures! Must get mine checked once she's ready.

Handles better now I suppose?
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post #3 of 31 Old 04-22-2012, 06:10 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 430Addict View Post
Wow! Thanks for the figures! Must get mine checked once she's ready.

Handles better now I suppose?
I hope so... time will tell. One thing I dont understand is how a car can be so wrong with factory settings. All bolts had their yellow markings intact so no one has made any changes before me. The biggest surprise is still the front total toe-in of almost 4 mm.

Ferrari 430 Scuderia 2008/12
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -99)
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -98)
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post #4 of 31 Old 04-22-2012, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johan6504 View Post
I hope so... time will tell. One thing I dont understand is how a car can be so wrong with factory settings. All bolts had their yellow markings intact so no one has made any changes before me. The biggest surprise is still the front total toe-in of almost 4 mm.
4mm? Shocking!
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post #5 of 31 Old 04-22-2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johan6504 View Post
I hope so... time will tell. One thing I dont understand is how a car can be so wrong with factory settings. All bolts had their yellow markings intact so no one has made any changes before me. The biggest surprise is still the front total toe-in of almost 4 mm.
Thanks - never even crossed my mind. When mine reaches service it's added to the list.
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post #6 of 31 Old 04-22-2012, 03:59 PM
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I still have my spreadsheet (which includes the scuderia factory geo settings) which I wanted to upload but couldn't find a way to do it (other than hosting elsewhere and posting a link which I haven't done).

If anyone can help me to upload it (Its an excel spreadsheet so was rejected by the upload facility) then please let me know!

Getting the geo done makes a massive difference. The only trouble is that the factory doesn't seem to bother since most customers don't seem to care either.

IMHO verifying geometry (even better corner weighting for all the different options you've had fitted for YOUR specific build) should be part of the hand over of the keys ceremony for new buyers but sadly isnt.
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post #7 of 31 Old 04-22-2012, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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Trev: I somehow downloaded you spreadsheet. Not sure from where but I used it for this first setup, thanks!

My aim was for the fast road settings. Didn't quite get there but close enough... Going from 4mm toe-in to 1mm was rather dramatic and the only change I would consider now is maybe adding just a little more toe-in again, kind of liked the stability at high speed.

The first track day in a couple of weeks will tell more I guess...

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(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -99)
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post #8 of 31 Old 04-23-2012, 12:21 PM
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Trev- Drop a PM to Andrew and he should be able to add Xcel spread sheets to the list of allowed attachments. He did it for me for Word attachments.

The other alternative is to scan the spreadsheet and save as a jpeg, which can be attached with no problem.

Taz
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post #9 of 31 Old 04-23-2012, 12:39 PM
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Not unusual at all.


One of the reasons 550s had such a reputation for eating tires is we routinely saw them set with more than 10mm of toe in.

The last time I was in the revision department where the alignment racks were was 1999. There was equipment for doing 2 alignments at once. One rack was being used for storage and I never saw the other being used.
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post #10 of 31 Old 05-21-2012, 01:51 AM Thread Starter
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I am now back after my first track day and I now know what you guys are talking about when you say understeer, I got to try to get this sorted...

I started the day pretty slow to get a feeling for the car. I had lap times of about 1 min 27 sec. After 5 sessions I had lap times of about 1 min 05 sec. This is Mazda Miata or old BMW M3 fast on this track, which is very narrow and twisty, so there is plenty more to do here. To be fair the speed is mainly due to the inexperienced driver, but I can’t stop thinking about getting rid of this under steer anyway ;-)

My car run on original PZero Corsa System (235/35-19 and 285/35-19) and I started with recommended pressure (2,1 bar front and 2,0 bar rear). Came in after 15 min and had way too much pressure (2,3 and 2,5). Reduced it back to original pressure but flipped to 2,0 in front and 2,1 at the rear. This is pretty much how the day went by; I came in changed pressure, and tried again. Never really got it too work as I wanted to, so I guess I could use some help here…

I noticed that I am still scrubbing the outside of the tire so I guess a little more negative camber is in place. I am now on -1,8 degr so I am thinking of going to 2,2-2,5 maybe…

I know there have been discussions about going up in width of front tire (to reduce understeer) but I am not sure that’s where I want to start. I also know the Pirelli isn’t considered to be the best tire and that the RE11 seem to be on most driver’s top list. Since RE11 isn’t sold in Europe I guess I would look at Pirelli Trofeo.

Would 245/35-19 (keep 285/35-19 in rear) work on Scuderia rims, what about the slightly higher wheel?

Any thoughts on how to make this work better is appreciated :-)
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Ferrari 430 Scuderia 2008/12
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -99)
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -98)

Last edited by johan6504; 05-21-2012 at 03:47 AM.
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post #11 of 31 Old 05-21-2012, 02:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johan6504 View Post
I am now back after my first track day and I now know what you guys are talking about when you say understeer, I got to try to get this sorted...

I started the day pretty slow to get a feeling for the car. I had lap times of about 1 min 27 sec. After 5 sessions I had lap times of about 1 min 05 sec. This is Mazda Miata or old BMW M3 fast on this track, which is very narrow and twisty, so there is plenty more to do here. To be fair the speed is mainly due to the inexperienced driver, but I can’t stop thinking about getting rid of this under steer anyway ;-)

My car run on original PZero Corsa System (235/35-19 and 285/35-19) and I started with recommended pressure (2,1 bar front and 2,0 bar rear). Came in after 15 min and had way too much pressure (2,3 and 2,5). Reduced it back to original pressure but flipped to 2,0 in front and 2,1 at the rear. This is pretty much how the day went by; I came in changed pressure, and tried again. Never really got it too work as I wanted to, so I guess I could use some help here…

I noticed that I am still scrubbing the outside of the tire so I guess a little more negative camber is in place. I am now on -1,8 degr so I am thinking of going to 2,2-2,5 maybe…

I know there have been discussions about going up in width of front tire (to reduce understeer) but I am not sure that’s where I want to start. I also know the Pirelli isn’t considered to be the best tire and that the RE11 seem to be on most driver’s top list. Since RE11 isn’t sold in Europe I guess I would look at Pirelli Trofeo.

Would 245/35-19 (keep 285/35-19 in rear) work on Scuderia rims, what about the slightly higher wheel?

Any thoughts on how to make this work better is appreciated :-)
Maybe try wider front tire, more camber and a fresh set MPSS (Pilot super sport) ? I think its a good alternative for us, who cannot get the RE-11.
I mean if you also drive the Scud on the street, MPSS is a great all round tire and also good on wet track conditions unlike the Corsas / Trofeos.

I switched from 2010 made PS2 to 2012 made MPSS and a 10mm wider tire (225--->235) at the front and it made a real difference.
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post #12 of 31 Old 05-28-2012, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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I will go in for new alignment in a few days. The plan is to add more negative camber in front only...

I am still on original sized Pirelli PZero Corsa System. This is the data I am aiming for:

Front
Camber -2,8°
Toe 0,5 mm

Rear
Camber -2,5°
Toe 2 mm

Any comments?

Ferrari 430 Scuderia 2008/12
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -99)
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -98)
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post #13 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johan6504 View Post
I will go in for new alignment in a few days. The plan is to add more negative camber in front only...

I am still on original sized Pirelli PZero Corsa System. This is the data I am aiming for:

Front
Camber -2,8°
Toe 0,5 mm

Rear
Camber -2,5°
Toe 2 mm

Any comments?
Any updates?
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post #14 of 31 Old 07-15-2014, 12:00 PM
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Hi Johan,

With which camber/toe setting you ended up? I'm going to raise my car as it is too low and bring it up to the Scud stock height (front: 114mm, rear: 136mm). I'm wondering if I should go with the stock Scud alignment (front:-1.5°,1.25mm/total 2.5mm, rear: -2°, 2mm/total 4mm). I don't need super sharp cornering but rather high stability at high Autobahn speed.

Thanks
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post #15 of 31 Old 07-15-2014, 08:46 PM
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Stef- For autobahn use, I would think the slightly higher toe and lower camber would work better. You want as much steering stability as you can get in the front and straight tracking in the rear and higher camber may wear tires rapidly at really high speeds.

Taz
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post #16 of 31 Old 07-15-2014, 10:57 PM
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Thanks Terry. If it was your car, what alignment specs would you apply for high speed stability? Too much toe in does wear the tires fast too I'm afraid?

Trev specified some time ago the following for Fast Road:
Toe front: 0.50mm - rear: 2.00mm
Camber front -1.8° - rear: -2.5°

That's actually less front toe and more front/rear camber
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post #17 of 31 Old 07-16-2014, 12:01 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StefVan View Post
Thanks Terry. If it was your car, what alignment specs would you apply for high speed stability? Too much toe in does wear the tires fast too I'm afraid?

Trev specified some time ago the following for Fast Road:
Toe front: 0.50mm - rear: 2.00mm
Camber front -1.8° - rear: -2.5°

That's actually less front toe and more front/rear camber
Hi Stef
When I got my Scuderia it had 2.5 mm total front toe in and 4 mm total rear toe in. The car was stable as a rock even at very high speeds.

I don't think you need to be to concerned about tire ware as long as you stay under total toe of 2 - 3 mm in front. If it was my car I would go for the camber you suggest -1,8 front and -2.5 at the rear. For toe in I would go for 2.0 mm total front toe in and 4 mm total toe in at the rear. This actually pretty close to 430 Scuderia factory spec. according the the pdf I am attaching...

To day I am on 2 mm toe out in front and still 4 mm toe in at the rear. I wouldn't want to drive the car like this on a long trip but it is ok for trips to the race track and back ;-)
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File Type: pdf F430 Scuderia Alignment Spec.pdf (481.8 KB, 214 views)

Ferrari 430 Scuderia 2008/12
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -99)
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post #18 of 31 Old 07-16-2014, 04:36 AM
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Finally managed to upload my xls spreadsheet (rename the file extension from .docx to .xls) and the load it into powerpoint!



Please let me know if you can get it to work guys!
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File Type: docx Ferrari_360_430_Chassis_Ge.docx (441.5 KB, 311 views)

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post #19 of 31 Old 07-16-2014, 04:46 AM
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Toe in does this...

Click on the tabs in the spreadsheet to see the relationships...

Front:
I prefer to use either close to no toe (neutral toe) or a bit of negative (-ve) toe (toe out) on the front when doing challenging twisty tracks or fast road use. It helps with turn in as the wheels are already in the turning in direction (see pic to help visualise). If you go with positive (+ve) toe your wheels are constantly scrubbing which actually reduces grip and wears out tires quickly but you gain a bit of increased front end stability at the trade off of turn in agility. For high speed straight line driving with some toe out you have to make micro corrections but with a little bit of toe in you dont. Depends on how you drive, where you drive and your driving style really.

Using positive toe (toe in) on the rear to help stabilize the car under braking and improve grip through the apex. Excessive toe will hurt straight line speeds and may lessen tire life by increasing scrub. Be careful as rear toe can really impact your stability so don't go crazy or you will spin the car easily!
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post #20 of 31 Old 07-16-2014, 09:22 AM
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Stef- I agree with Johan on the toe. Cornering is not your issue, so a reasonable amount front and rear, like 1 mm F and 2 mm for the rear.

Trev- Stef is really worried about very high speed stability.

Taz
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