360 Suspension Geometry for the 360 & F430 - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 33 Old 03-18-2012, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
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Suspension Geometry for the 360 & F430

There are a lot of confusing threads asking about what are the best geometry setting for handling on the 360, F430, Challenge Stradale and 430 Scuderia/16M.

In reality it is quite difficult question to answer well because it really depends on what you are using the car for. The factory settings are a compromise for 'safe' driving. You can do a lot better for different circumstances [particularly fast road/track] but ultimately it depends on how you drive it, the tires you fit on it and the type of roads, if your willing to compromise a bit of tire life over ultimate grip, etc.

Well I have recently been playing with my setup and decided to do some comparative analysis on all the factory stock setting across all the 360/430 chassis'd cars. This allowed me to go with a slightly modified spec safe in the knowledge that I've not deviated away too much from the track biased settings of the road cars [so no nasty handling surprises]. I also got some great information from Rad [F430GT] who's track tested many of these configurations and was able to provide a lot of information spread amongst lots of different threads.

Doing this research has also revealed some very interesting information which I'm hoping will prove useful to others too. I've also documented the different geometry settings across all the different models and compared them (graphed) the differences so its easier to see what Ferrari did on the setup between say a 360 and a 430 Scuderia.

Lets start with the comparison graphs.. Quite enlightening...
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post #2 of 33 Old 03-18-2012, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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Hmmm, Admins, I cannot seem upload the excel spreadsheet on here [says its an invalid file, even when zipped]. Can you help?
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post #3 of 33 Old 03-18-2012, 09:48 AM Thread Starter
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In the mean time here is a screen grab of what the excel sheet looks like.

It allows you to compare your geo to other models easily and lets you therefore work out how much camber and toe you wish to use comparatively to other models, from a 360 to a Scuderia.

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post #4 of 33 Old 03-18-2012, 02:06 PM
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Trev- Great stuff. I know the lower front toe-in will help turn-in and tire wear, but possibly at the risk of less straight line stability and less self-centering. Have you noticed any differences?

Does the higher negative camber you are using have any affect on rear tire wear? Should definitely improve cornering.

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post #5 of 33 Old 03-18-2012, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
Trev- Great stuff. I know the lower front toe-in will help turn-in and tire wear, but possibly at the risk of less straight line stability and less self-centering. Have you noticed any differences?

Does the higher negative camber you are using have any affect on rear tire wear? Should definitely improve cornering.
Terry,

So far I am happy with the geo changes. I have not yet driven it much but the steering self-centering does not really seem to be affected by the reduction in front toe-in. It does however now feel razor sharp and pinpoint accurate, its now even easier to place the car exactly where I want it. Even at high speeds the steering is not wandering all over the road or following cambers as I feared it may by going to virtually no front toe. I am of course running 235 section tires so this may be helping to offset the changes. The other advantage is reduced tire wear at the front, offset partly by upping the -ve camber though

Will drive it more and comment further. Car feels amazing, love it! Will report further on tire wear as the miles pile on...
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post #6 of 33 Old 03-18-2012, 09:23 PM
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Trev- Looking forward to your report. Need to PM you on your wheel data sometime soon.

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post #7 of 33 Old 03-19-2012, 12:04 AM
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Very well done Trev. Putting together all this info in a nice spreadsheet is a great idea. For the moment, I haven't found yet the best alignment. Great cornering but loose steering wheel at high speeds.

Here are the details of my last alignment after having installed the Scuderia stiffest springs + new PS2 tires + lowering :

New Michelin PS2 front + rear tires / full fuel tank / 65kg load

Rear Alignment values (before / after)
Camber Left: -247' -> -147'
Camber Right: -246' -> -144'
Toe-in Left: +4.8mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Right: +1.0mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Total: +5.8mm -> +3.2mm
Toe-in Diff: +6.7mm -> +0.8mm

Front Alignement values (before / after)
Camber Left: -156' -> -137'
Camber Right: -145' -> -131'
Toe-in Left: +2.1mm -> +1.5mm
Toe-in Right: +1.6mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Total: +3.7mm -> +3.1mm
Toe-in Diff: 0mm -> -1.1mm
Caster 20 Left: +558' -> +550'
Caster 20 Right: +556' -> +549'
Left Max steering Left Wheel: +2136' -> +2900'
Left Max steering Right: +2057' -> +2619'
Right Max steering Left Wheel: +2929' -> +2641'
Right Max steering Right Wheel: +3248' -> +2929'

What do you think about this?
Cheers.
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post #8 of 33 Old 03-19-2012, 01:27 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StefVan View Post
Very well done Trev. Putting together all this info in a nice spreadsheet is a great idea. For the moment, I haven't found yet the best alignment. Great cornering but loose steering wheel at high speeds.

Here are the details of my last alignment after having installed the Scuderia stiffest springs + new PS2 tires + lowering :

New Michelin PS2 front + rear tires / full fuel tank / 65kg load

Rear Alignment values (before / after)
Camber Left: -247' -> -147'
Camber Right: -246' -> -144'
Toe-in Left: +4.8mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Right: +1.0mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Total: +5.8mm -> +3.2mm
Toe-in Diff: +6.7mm -> +0.8mm

Front Alignement values (before / after)
Camber Left: -156' -> -137'
Camber Right: -145' -> -131'
Toe-in Left: +2.1mm -> +1.5mm
Toe-in Right: +1.6mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Total: +3.7mm -> +3.1mm
Toe-in Diff: 0mm -> -1.1mm
Caster 20 Left: +558' -> +550'
Caster 20 Right: +556' -> +549'
Left Max steering Left Wheel: +2136' -> +2900'
Left Max steering Right: +2057' -> +2619'
Right Max steering Left Wheel: +2929' -> +2641'
Right Max steering Right Wheel: +3248' -> +2929'

What do you think about this?
Cheers.
Stef,
Lets take a look...

Rear:
Camber is the angle of the wheel relative to vertical, as viewed from the front or the rear of the car. If the wheel leans in towards the chassis, it has negative camber; if it leans away from the car, it has positive camber. The cornering force that a tire can develop is highly dependent on its angle relative to the road surface, and so wheel camber has a major effect on the road holding of a car.

Rear Camber:
Camber Left: -247' -> -147'
Camber Right: -246' -> -144'


Your rear camber before was setup perfectly for 'fast road'. -1.5 is stock on the F430, -1.9 to -2.1 is stock on the CS and 430 Scuderia models. -2.5 works very well actually. Its quite an aggressive negative camber but very good for track work. Scrubs out the tires quicker though in this configuration. Your setup is now back to factory stock. To a point the more negative camber the less chance of slide from that axle when hard cornering.

Rear Toe:
Toe-in Left: +4.8mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Right: +1.0mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Total: +5.8mm -> +3.2mm
Toe-in Diff: +6.7mm -> +0.8mm

Toe in at the rear makes your car more sticky at the back and easier to drive. This may stabilize your car. But be careful, this is a very sensitive adjustment. Toe-out Rear, Toe-out makes the rear of your car very unstable. This adjustment is not recommended.

Your toe was way off - the goal is to have no toe difference between left and right, ideally 0.0m difference, you had 6.7mm difference! Originally Ferrari used 1.5mm per side [3mm total toe] on the 360's but this leads to quite a lively back end so to help stabilize it they increased toe in on the 430's to 4mm total. Thats 2mm per side. Your actually running 360 levels of toes so your rear end will be more twitchy (feel more like the 360 did!!). Again your car was setup very high levels of toe in which gives a very stable rear end. Yours is a little on the low side which will give you a more mobile back end which can be fun. I like it like this but its more easy to spin vs 4mm toe of the stock setup. Did you go for this deliberately or did they just set it up non stock for you? You should be running +2.0mm per side, 4mm total (0.0mm diff ideally).


Front:
Front Camber:
Camber Left: -156' -> -137'
Camber Right: -145' -> -131'

Your setup on the front camber wise was setup like on the scud, -1.5 is indeed stock on Scuderia. Your guys have reduced it a bit [its -1.2 to -1.4 on the CS] and stock is -1.0 on the road cars. You've still got higher than stock but still not enough in my honest opinion I would have tried to get the right wheel camber to match the left and aimed for -1.6 to -1.8. [perfect sweet spot]. In fact F430GT [rad] believes that increasing front camber makes a massive massive difference to handling on the 360 and 430. He believes it transforms the handling, reduces understeer at the front [as long as you have good -ve camber at the back too] and it really transforms the car, especially if you can go wider at the front with more rubber and fix the crappy factory high levels of toe in.

Front Toe:
Toe-in Left: +2.1mm -> +1.5mm
Toe-in Right: +1.6mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Total: +3.7mm -> +3.1mm
Toe-in Diff: 0mm -> -1.1mm

You car had too much toe in at the front and imho it still has too much toe in at the front despite it being the factory setup [3mm total toe [1.5mm per side] is used across all 360's/430's as stock). This scrubs out your front tires quicker and resists turn in into corners. I prefer near to zero toe at the front. This makes the car much quicker to turn in and helps with agility. If you have 0 toe in people complain the car is less able to follow a straight line, you have to make micro adjustments on the wheel to keep going straight. I haven't noticed this at all, all i noticed is better steering feedback and quicker turn in. Razor sharp by running just a small amount of toe in. Rad [F430GT] actually runs a small amount of TOE OUT at the front when tracking the car [with big levels of toe in at the back, 4mm per side at rear!] because he believes it helps to turn in, in effect the wheels are already slightly pointing into the turn. Not my favorite setup for the road but I can see his point.

Seems like your 430 geo was setup for the stock 360... I'd personally go with 430 Scuderia geo to match your springs.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by 360trev; 03-19-2012 at 01:44 AM.
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post #9 of 33 Old 03-19-2012, 03:34 AM
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Wow, that's a great analysis ! Thanks very much Trev Your expertise in this domain is very much appreciated!

I will study more in details what you wrote, this evening and build up an new alignment plan so that the alignment can be redone with more accurate values. If you don't mind, I'll post them back and it would be great if you can have a look to it before they are applied on my car
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post #10 of 33 Old 03-19-2012, 04:10 AM
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What kind of shims are being used in changing the setup of the 430/Scud (and where can i buy them). I bought a set of shims for my 355 when I worked on that but I cant seem to find any for the 430/Scud...

Ferrari 430 Scuderia 2008/12
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -99)
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -98)
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post #11 of 33 Old 03-19-2012, 05:09 AM
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Johan, Ricambi seems to have the camber shims for 360/430/Scud :

Rear camber adjustment plates:
Ferrari Parts : 178954 : 178954 CAMBER SHIMS SP.4

Front camber adjustment plates:
http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_...=diag&I=112044

Last edited by StefVan; 03-19-2012 at 06:38 AM.
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post #12 of 33 Old 03-19-2012, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StefVan View Post
Johan, Ricambi seems to have the camber shims for 360/430/Scud :

Rear camber adjustment plates:
Ferrari Parts : 178954 : 178954 CAMBER SHIMS SP.4

Front camber adjustment plates:
Ferrari Parts, Ferrari Accessories, and Ferrari Performance Products - Ricambi America, Inc.
Thanks :-)

Ferrari 430 Scuderia 2008/12
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -99)
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -98)
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post #13 of 33 Old 03-19-2012, 03:44 PM
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Great thread and info

Quote:
Originally Posted by StefVan View Post
Johan, Ricambi seems to have the camber shims for 360/430/Scud :

Rear camber adjustment plates:
Ferrari Parts : 178954 : 178954 CAMBER SHIMS SP.4

Front camber adjustment plates:
Ferrari Parts, Ferrari Accessories, and Ferrari Performance Products - Ricambi America, Inc.
Do we need these specific shims to make camber adjustments? A mechanic in a nearby shop said they've never worked on an F430 but they can do the adjustments.
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post #14 of 33 Old 03-19-2012, 04:03 PM
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T- Here are the shims for camber adjustment (#13). Might be possible to fabricate them, but the shape is kind of complex, so much easier to have a supply of varying sizes. They vary in thickness from 1-4 mm, and you want to get the geometry as close as possible with $2000 worth of tires on the car.
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post #15 of 33 Old 03-19-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
T- Here are the shims for camber adjustment (#13). Might be possible to fabricate them, but the shape is kind of complex, so much easier to have a supply of varying sizes. They vary in thickness from 1-4 mm, and you want to get the geometry as close as possible with $2000 worth of tires on the car.
Thanks for the info Taz, guess I'll just go ahead and grab a set from Ricambi.

So guys you think this would be an good starting point?
Camber Front: -1.5
Camber Rear: -2.0
Toe-in Front: -1.5
Toe-in Rear: 1.0
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post #16 of 33 Old 03-19-2012, 04:26 PM
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T- Likely too much front toe-in. Maybe see if 1.0 mm per side would work for you and then you can try lower numbers, like Trev used.

Taz
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post #17 of 33 Old 03-19-2012, 04:54 PM
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Sorry, mistake on Front Toe-in, should have been 1.0.

Thanks again for the info Taz. This should be fun.
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post #18 of 33 Old 03-21-2012, 12:21 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo T View Post
Thanks for the info Taz, guess I'll just go ahead and grab a set from Ricambi.

So guys you think this would be an good starting point?
Camber Front: -1.5
Camber Rear: -2.0
Toe-in Front: -1.5
Toe-in Rear: 1.0
For reference;
Negative camber means a '-' before the number
Positive camber means a '+' or nothing before the number
Toe out is '-' before
Toe in is a '+' before
or nothing before the number

You definitely don't want toe out on the rear. Rear Toe-out makes the rear of your car very unstable and shouldn't be used. Your negative cambers are fine but your toe needs some changes..

Camber Front:-1.5
Camber Rear: -2.0

I prefer just a little toe in at the front (only 0.50mm to 0.75mm per side), the stock setting is 1.25mm per side (giving a total of 2.5mm toe in). On the rear toe I'd start with the most stable setting at the rear, that's 2.0mm of toe each side (4mm total). This is the 430/430 Scud default setting and helps make the 360 handle more like a 430. Less mobile back end. If you want it to handle with a more lively back end the factory toe on the 360 is a little less toe in at 3mm total (1.5mm per side).

Zero (or Neutral Toe) at the rear gives a very neutral feeling. The car will be slightly faster and more efficient, however it will definitely be sticking less at the back and will slow your lap times and ofcourse be more prone to oversteer. Its a very sensitive adjustment the rear toe so I'd stick with either 2.0mm (recommendation) or 1.5mm per side unless you have lots of time to experiment.

Toe-in Front: -1.5 -> toe in, 0.5 mm to 0.75mm per side
Toe-in Rear: 1.0 -> toe in, 1.5mm to 2.0 mm per side
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post #19 of 33 Old 03-22-2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 360trev View Post
For reference;
Negative camber means a '-' before the number
Positive camber means a '+' or nothing before the number
Toe out is '-' before
Toe in is a '+' before
or nothing before the number

You definitely don't want toe out on the rear. Rear Toe-out makes the rear of your car very unstable and shouldn't be used. Your negative cambers are fine but your toe needs some changes..

Camber Front:-1.5
Camber Rear: -2.0

I prefer just a little toe in at the front (only 0.50mm to 0.75mm per side), the stock setting is 1.25mm per side (giving a total of 2.5mm toe in). On the rear toe I'd start with the most stable setting at the rear, that's 2.0mm of toe each side (4mm total). This is the 430/430 Scud default setting and helps make the 360 handle more like a 430. Less mobile back end. If you want it to handle with a more lively back end the factory toe on the 360 is a little less toe in at 3mm total (1.5mm per side).

Zero (or Neutral Toe) at the rear gives a very neutral feeling. The car will be slightly faster and more efficient, however it will definitely be sticking less at the back and will slow your lap times and ofcourse be more prone to oversteer. Its a very sensitive adjustment the rear toe so I'd stick with either 2.0mm (recommendation) or 1.5mm per side unless you have lots of time to experiment.

Toe-in Front: -1.5 -> toe in, 0.5 mm to 0.75mm per side
Toe-in Rear: 1.0 -> toe in, 1.5mm to 2.0 mm per side
Thanks for all the details, It's interesting to know that these alignments can be way off out from the factory.
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post #20 of 33 Old 04-12-2012, 09:53 AM
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Thanks for all info in this thread :-)

I am off to wheel alignment with the 430 Scuderia next weekend. My Ferrari workshop (AutoCura) let me borrow a box of shims so I don't have to buy a complete set of shims, really nice guys :-)

On the Ferrari 355 I ran a relatively aggressive setup, but I used R-rated Pirelli Corsa at that time...

I am now on standard Pirelli PZero Corsa System and will try this setup and take it from there:

Front
Camber -1,8 deg
Toe-in 0.5 mm (total toe 1 mm)

Rear
Camber -2,5 deg
Toe-in 2 mm (total toe 4 mm)

A few pictures from the last alignment event and a picture from the following track day. I just love the way the 355 looks, one best looking car ever, if you ask me :-)
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Ferrari 430 Scuderia 2008/12
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -99)
(Ferrari 355 GTS F1 -98)

Last edited by johan6504; 04-12-2012 at 10:05 AM.
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