360 Clutch Now...Clutch Later? - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 27 Old 03-07-2012, 07:35 AM Thread Starter
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Clutch Now...Clutch Later?

Update from prior post...Just purchased 2003 360 Modena F1 w 4,700 miles! Historical service records appropriate for age and miles. Dealer (not the seller) PPI discovered oil leak (rear main or crank plug behind pilot bearing) and F1 clutch wear at 60%, nothing more serious. She's in shop for leak repair, annual service, and new tires. How accurate are these clutch percent wear measurements? I know that future clutch wear will mostly depend on my driving style, but in general...how many miles could I expect from the remaining 40%? Should I replace clutch while they are doing the leak repair (less expensive now than doing alone later)?
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post #2 of 27 Old 03-07-2012, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starfish View Post
Update from prior post...Just purchased 2003 360 Modena F1 w 4,700 miles! Historical service records appropriate for age and miles. Dealer (not the seller) PPI discovered oil leak (rear main or crank plug behind pilot bearing) and F1 clutch wear at 60%, nothing more serious. She's in shop for leak repair, annual service, and new tires. How accurate are these clutch percent wear measurements? I know that future clutch wear will mostly depend on my driving style, but in general...how many miles could I expect from the remaining 40%? Should I replace clutch while they are doing the leak repair (less expensive now than doing alone later)?
Call me crazy but I'd probably just do the clutch work now too. Reason being, that way I'd feel confident that I had many miles/months of trouble free driving ahead of me.
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post #3 of 27 Old 03-07-2012, 10:14 AM
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As the old saying goes (or should):

Pay me now, or pay me (more) later....

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post #4 of 27 Old 03-07-2012, 12:37 PM
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Starfish, 60% is not much wear. I would leave the clutch in and anyway, the day the clutch made it's time, there will be other things to do on the car and you'll have the opportunity to combine other works together. For now, I would make sure that the guys will concentrate on their job and make the car in perfect condition. Just my 0.02 BTW, the clutch wear calculation is pretty reliable. I would ask your dealer to print out from the SD2, the clutch abuse values like number of overheating etc.
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post #5 of 27 Old 03-07-2012, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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StefVan...your 2 cents are priceless to this newbie. Thank you for the feedback. I will take your advice and leave the clutch in and will be sure to ask for the print out you mention. Thanks again.
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post #6 of 27 Old 03-07-2012, 04:55 PM
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Starfish, 60% is not much wear.

I would ask your dealer to print out from the SD2, the clutch abuse values like number of overheating etc.
I agree, 60% is not "much", until you consider the car has travelled less than 5ooo miles. In that case, it's more than much.

Makes the SD2 data even more essential.

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post #7 of 27 Old 03-07-2012, 05:22 PM
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SF, Stef- The F1 clutches generally start having problems at around 70% wear indicated by the SD2 reading of clutch life remaining/clutch wear. If the clutch needs to be removed to replace the engine seals you mentioned, replacing it while the labor is free would be a good idea. If you do replace it, replace the clutch position sensor and throw-out bearing at the same time. That gets kind of expensive, but while you are in there....

On the three pedal 360s and F430s, clutch pedal pressure gets very heavy as the clutch nears its wear limit. On the F1 cars, 900 psi of hydraulic pressure does not care about heaviness. First indication of a worn clutch is usually the F1 system selecting neutral rather than damage the transmission from shifting with a partially released clutch.

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post #8 of 27 Old 03-07-2012, 09:07 PM Thread Starter
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Taz and Killer58...thanks for the feedback. I'm feeling a little confused on what to do, but will need to pull the trigger tomorrow morning. Any further comments appreciated.
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post #9 of 27 Old 03-07-2012, 10:47 PM
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Thanks Terry, I understand very well how the clutch works Although, if 70% = 100% wear than we have a algorithmic problem here in the clutch wear calculation I don't think that a couple of exceptions means that all 70% = 100% clutch wear. As well as some cars have a clutch wear of 99% while the clutch is still in perfect condition. Leaving the exceptions apart, a car having 60% clutch wear still has a clutch in excellent condition.

Starfish, if your shop really needs to remove the clutch to do the other jobs, then they are in the best condition to evaluate directly the clutch, flywheel, TO bearing and CPS condition. If any of them is worn out (or close to it), do not hesitate to change the parts. Good luck
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post #10 of 27 Old 03-08-2012, 01:53 AM
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60% is a lot of wear. I would be pushing to have a new clutch put in as I've known issues (such as skipping into neutral) occuring at a reading as low as 65%.

I'm yet to see or hear of someone making a clutch last to a reading of 100%.

ETA: IF they've got the 'box off to do the rear seal then it would be madness to not change out the clutch - it's only 1k for the clutch kit, the rest of the cost is labour which already has to be done for the seal.
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post #11 of 27 Old 03-08-2012, 07:34 AM Thread Starter
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Yep...everything is off up to the rear seal of the motor. I will hear from the shop in a few hours about the condition of the clutch, bearings, etc. (guess it's possible the rear seal oil leak could have worked its way back to the clutch area). The car shifted fine for the very short time I had it on the road (purchased last Friday...in shop Monday) no obvious slips, and no oil smell when warmed up. Further thoughts?
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post #12 of 27 Old 03-08-2012, 09:42 AM
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Stef- I knew you knew how it worked, but SF may not have. No, those are not exceptions on clutch wear. With the algorithms set up the way they are, 70% and clutch problems are very common, even for the V12s (575/612).

With the clutch removed, it will be easy to measure clutch plate thickness and make a determination on whether she needs replacing.

Whoever owned the car in the past probably did not understand how to use the system to maximize clutch life. Either that, or he had a steep driveway he backed out of every day.

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post #13 of 27 Old 03-08-2012, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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Shop definitely recommended new clutch disk and pressure plate. They said the TO bearing and sensor looked ok, but since Ferrari now has a 2 year warranty on those parts...I figured it was a good insurance policy to replace them at this time as well.
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post #14 of 27 Old 03-08-2012, 10:05 AM
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On an '03 F1, you should be seeing around 20k of use on a clutch before it fails. I would definitely consider 60% @ 5k excessive. You also want to consider the release bearing grease & seals have been under stress for 9yrs now.

My opinion is that replacing everything while it's apart is wise, preventative maintenance. This may be an opportunity to avoid having the car inf or service again before you're ready for it.


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post #15 of 27 Old 03-08-2012, 10:08 AM
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SF- You have chosen wisely, Grasshopper.

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post #16 of 27 Old 03-08-2012, 12:37 PM
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Thanks Terry, no offense taken I think I will change the TCU clutch wear algorithm in such way that 70% will become 100% . But I'm not getting how much the car have to be abused to wear out a clutch in 5K ! This is just unbelievable. I have over 50.000km on my original clutch and when I checked everything end 2011, the clutch, flywheel and TO bearing are still in perfect condition...which as for me is just normal and nothing exceptional (and I do drive my car hard ). Sure, I have a manual but still...
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post #17 of 27 Old 03-08-2012, 12:51 PM
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Stef- You do not downshift from 6th to 1st through every gear every time you stop the car, but many drivers of F1 systems allow the system to do that for them. 5000 miles and clutch shot is still well out of the ordinary, though. My best guess would be lots of reverse time, and on a 360, that is almost as bad as starting in 2nd gear. 1st 3.286:1, R 2.565:1, 2nd 2.158:1.

My 575M F1 has 19,500 miles on the clutch and I intend to double that with any luck.

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post #18 of 27 Old 03-08-2012, 01:03 PM
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I wish you will bring it up to 40K miles Terry! That's true, on a manual, you don't downshift through every gear but depending on how hard you brake, you'll jump 1 or 2 gears at once keeping always the rev matching in mind. And I don't downshift at all when I need to make a full stop like in city driving, I have brakes for that

But as you always say so well, the F1 should be driven like a manual.
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post #19 of 27 Old 03-08-2012, 01:08 PM
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Stef- I stop the same way with F1. Select neutral, coast to a stop. More wear and tear on everything, including the engine, doing unnecessary downshifting. Now when you are in a hurry, that is different.

If in neutral in F1 cars and traffic starts moving, selecting the upshift paddle gets you way too high a gear. Selecting the downshift paddle gets you one gear lower. No sweat with your three pedal car, since you just pick the gear to match speed, match revs and you are off.

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post #20 of 27 Old 03-08-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
If in neutral in F1 cars and traffic starts moving, selecting the upshift paddle gets you way too high a gear
doesn't it just get you first gear?

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