458 my 458 with michelin's latest and greatest PSS is crzazzp too - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 02:31 AM Thread Starter
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my 458 with michelin's latest and greatest PSS is crzazzp too

i feel like im a tire abuser or tester by trade, i go thru 2 new tires almost every month on my cars.

again, 99% of my driving is in the twistys, NO TRACK, driving at my limit, not intentionally trying to trash my lovely car or tires, but this tire wear, this fast is getting too ridiculous to accept even for me!

my tire shop has officially started a R&D center on high end tires just because of me. first the shxxty front Pzeros that came with the car blistered in less than 2k miles, had to throw those away, the corsas on the scuderia went away in 3600 miles, the S001 doesnt grip much and lasts about the same.....(all no track)

and now, the michelin pilot SUPER SPORTS advertised being the best, latest and greatest tire for all conditions and said to last twice as much as pzeros and other competitiors went completely bald without steel belts showing at 3800 miles!! and it costs 15% more than corsas and 30% more than pzeros and others!!!!!

i went in for a simple rotation because i saw the inside fronts are wearing much more than the outside edges.
Imagine the surprise when the mechanics came out and said i need new tires with less than 4k miles on them???!!!
I went in the bay and looked at them and to my shocking surprise, the inner fronts were bald!!! And they say these lasts twice as much as the pzeros?????!!!!

well......, to be fair, in my case, they did last twice as much as my pzeros.....
but again, HOW THE FXXK does a tire which never been on a track and advertised to last twice as much as others go bald in less than 4k miles???!!!
the wears are even and beautiful right across from the middle to the inner edges, as u can see from the picture below. Only blame on me by the tire shop was i should come in to roate it sooner.
but how the hell do i know i should come rotate at an super early 2k miles???!!! this is unheard of.

Previously, i recommended this tire to everybody because of its advertised twice as long and its bar none the most expensive money can buy. I was also one of the 1st to use it and have praised its performance both dry and wet.

to be a little bit more fair, these tires always had tremendous grip from new to the very end, right now im scared because i see that its bald, but it still grips, but i aint trying to stretch it after seeing it in this condition.

so, scratch PSS off ur must buy list. (it used to be #1 on my list)

its a nice performance tire, grips better than pzeros and about the same as corsas, but for its price and fast wear atleast when im driving, im better off buying 2 bridestone S001s for the price of 1.3 PSS.

and i will drive slow from now on, slow enough that i wont need brakes before corners, just coast it thru, and i will see how much my new set lasts which im still thinking which to get....

i think my track style driving has to go if i dont wanna continue to sit in tire shops every month.








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post #2 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 02:46 AM
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Good man Johns930. Obviously driving it as Enzo intended!

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post #3 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 03:11 AM
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Johns930, I'm afraid your issue has nothing to do with the excellent Michelin PSS tires...your car need a serious geometric alignment ! Without such alignment, you will wear out any tire brand very very fast. Many Ferraris, even new, have a serious alignment problem. It's something I'm doing every 2 years or so.
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post #4 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 03:15 AM Thread Starter
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yea i did that last time i changed tires, as u can see, it wears evenly from middle to the right.
and my ride is just a year old.
and both front tires wear the same way.
i was just supposed to rotate them half life ago, but didnt know half life was only 2k miles.


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...your car need a serious geometric alignment !
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post #5 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 04:30 AM
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I can see that very clearly on your pictures John and despite the fact you made already an alignment, it really looks like you still have an excessive camber. I would ask for the before/after camber values because such tire wear isn't normal. If the alignment is right, such wear could also be due to sagging springs, worn ball joints, or worn control arm bushings.

I suppose your car is still under warranty and if so, your shop should really look into this issue.

Good luck
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post #6 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 05:38 AM
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John, ask your shop what settings they're using for the front toe.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #7 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 05:58 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks! I'll have them check on that.

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I can see that very clearly on your pictures John and despite the fact you made already ....
Good luck
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post #8 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 09:16 AM
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The alignment is obviously a mess.

Getting 4000 miles out of a set of maximum performance street tires on a car being driven that hard is not bad. At best they are usually only good for 8000 or so.


You need a shop that knows about suspension set up, reading specs from a book just does not cut it. They need to taylor the car to how it is being driven and those guys are not doing it. It is not knowledge that they should need to be told about.

Find someone up to speed.
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post #9 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 09:19 AM
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As mentioned above - your settings look to be way off. Essentially your tyres are being dragged sideways across the road which wears off one side of the tyre prematurely. I drive my car (360) very hard on PZeros and use about 2 sets of rears and 1 set of fronts each year. That's about 7,000 miles on road and track pretty much at full tilt.
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post #10 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 09:50 AM
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John- I agree that your car is out of alignment. Normally very hard driving will tend to wear out the outside edges of front tires, not the inside edge. Like Brian said, you need someone who really knows what they are doing to juggle camber, toe-in and ride height until all are perfect.

Also, you should not rotate radial tires from one side to the other. This will actually shorten life. On cars with equal size radial tires a front to rear rotation will extend tire life and equalize wear. For Ferraris and other cars with unequal size front and rear radials, no rotation should be done.

If it makes you feel any better, I wore out a set of P Zero Rossas on the front of my car in less than 2000 miles from the front end being out of alignment. The cars being strapped down during transportation seems to have a very adverse affect on suspension alignment.

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post #11 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
The cars being strapped down during transportation seems to have a very adverse affect on suspension alignment.

Last time I was in the rivision department Ferrari had 2 alignment racks. One was being used to stack stuff on and I never saw the other used. The cars come out of the factory with poorly estimated alighment settings. It was not unusual to find 8 or more mm toe in on the front of 550 and 575. That took rubber off the tires like a pencil eraser. Didn't do much good for the turn in of the car either.
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post #12 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 10:07 AM
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Brian- That was just after I received the car so I had very little feel for how it drove then, but erasers is a pretty good description of how fast they went. The fronts were gone by my first annual. Hard to see without putting the car on a rack, especially since the rears were fine, but worn. My techs have trained a really good alignment shop on how to do the job correctly.

New front tires annually increases maintenance costs quite a bit.

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post #13 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
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It was not unusual to find 8 or more mm toe in on the front of 550 and 575. That took rubber off the tires like a pencil eraser. Didn't do much good for the turn in of the car either.
Brian, I'd like to hear what your preferences are for a good performance street alignment? I like nearly 0 toe in the front, and maybe 1mm toe-in on each side at the rear. Then as much caster as possible, with 1.0 to 1.5 degrees of negative camber. Less camber in front than in the rear.

I've run this on other cars with good results, and have my 550 setup this way now too, and the turn in is excellent. I really don't have a good frame of reference for it, however, as I've not driven anyone else's 550.

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post #14 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 12:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns930 View Post
i feel like im a tire abuser or tester by trade, i go thru 2 new tires almost every month on my cars.

again, 99% of my driving is in the twistys, NO TRACK, driving at my limit, not intentionally trying to trash my lovely car or tires, but this tire wear, this fast is getting too ridiculous to accept even for me!

and i will drive slow from now on, slow enough that i wont need brakes before corners, just coast it thru, and i will see how much my new set lasts which im still thinking which to get....

i think my track style driving has to go if i dont wanna continue to sit in tire shops every month.
no offense dude, but you need to stop driving like that on the street and find yourself a racetrack.

and yeah, your car is out of alignment
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post #15 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 12:38 PM
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Just as another example of a geometric alignment, this is the latest alignment I did on my 430 :

New Michelin PS2 front + rear tires / full fuel tank / 65kg load

Car lowered
Front: 8.3 cm between wheel rim edge and fender edge (in stead of 10 cm)
Rear : 10 cm between wheel rim edge and fender edge (in stead of 12 cm)

4 Scuderia Springs (red version having the stiffest spring rate)

Rear Alignment values (before / after)
Camber Left: -247' -> -147'
Camber Right: -246' -> -144'
Toe-in Left: +4.8mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Right: +1.0mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Total: +5.8mm -> +3.2mm
Toe-in Diff: +6.7mm -> +0.8mm

Front Alignment values (before / after)
Camber Left: -156' -> -137'
Camber Right: -145' -> -131'
Toe-in Left: +2.1mm -> +1.5mm
Toe-in Right: +1.6mm -> +1.6mm
Toe-in Total: +3.7mm -> +3.1mm
Toe-in Diff: 0mm -> -1.1mm
Caster 20 Left: +558' -> +550'
Caster 20 Right: +556' -> +549'
Left Max steering Left Wheel: +2136' -> +2900'
Left Max steering Right: +2057' -> +2619'
Right Max steering Left Wheel: +2929' -> +2641'
Right Max steering Right Wheel: +3248' -> +2929'

My tire wear since this alignment is 100% equal on the entire tire width while handling for street driving remains very good .
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post #16 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 01:37 PM
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John- 575M specs are -1 deg front and -1.5 deg rear, so you are close.

Taz
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post #17 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
Brian, I'd like to hear what your preferences are for a good performance street alignment? I like nearly 0 toe in the front, and maybe 1mm toe-in on each side at the rear. Then as much caster as possible, with 1.0 to 1.5 degrees of negative camber. Less camber in front than in the rear.

I've run this on other cars with good results, and have my 550 setup this way now too, and the turn in is excellent. I really don't have a good frame of reference for it, however, as I've not driven anyone else's 550.

That is actually a pretty good set up. I like no more than 1mm toe in per wheel and often less in front depending on the tires reaction to it. For the track they work well with more neg camber and the front toed out a couple of mm. But for street use it will eat up the tires and with it toed out you feel like you are driving a worm on the freeway.


But like I said to the op the way your tires are wearing is the best indicator.
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post #18 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
John- I agree that your car is out of alignment. Normally very hard driving will tend to wear out the outside edges of front tires, not the inside edge. Like Brian said, you need someone who really knows what they are doing to juggle camber, toe-in and ride height until all are perfect.

Also, you should not rotate radial tires from one side to the other. This will actually shorten life. On cars with equal size radial tires a front to rear rotation will extend tire life and equalize wear. For Ferraris and other cars with unequal size front and rear radials, no rotation should be done.

If it makes you feel any better, I wore out a set of P Zero Rossas on the front of my car in less than 2000 miles from the front end being out of alignment. The cars being strapped down during transportation seems to have a very adverse affect on suspension alignment.
That explains a lot - my G55 was at 10 o'clock to drive it straight when I drove it right after it was transported.

I took it to the local MB center and yelled at the boys who sold me the car out of alignment.

I had no idea ...
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post #19 of 24 Old 01-02-2012, 03:49 PM
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Doug- You would think they would just check the bloody alignment. No big deal to check it. When you start swapping shims is where the work comes in. Not sure how it is done on a Mercedes. If it is eccentrics, that is pretty easy.

Times change. My late uncle was a GM mechanic before he started his own shop. He checked wheel balance and only charged for the ones he had to actually change the weights. Same went for suspension alignment. If it was good, no charge. If he had to make changes, there was a charge. Learned a lot from him.

Different world out there now.

Taz
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post #20 of 24 Old 01-03-2012, 12:46 AM Thread Starter
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ok, i might've found the cause, the inner rims are bent and out of round, but i never noticed any excessive vibrations thru the steering wheel.
now its fixed and we'll see.

In all fairness the PSS did last twice as much as the pzeros, but now im a little reluctant to pay the premium over the S001s.
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