360 360 v. F430 driving impressions - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 11 Old 11-08-2011, 02:10 PM Thread Starter
 
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360 v. F430 driving impressions

Thinking of getting my first Ferrari, and I am considering a 360 or an early F430. I am thinking manual transmission, probably coupe (but love the the 360 spider lines). My real question concerns driving enjoyment, not so much speed. Just about everything I've read says "go with the F430 if you can swing it; it's that much better." Coming from Porsches, where newer is maybe faster but not better in terms of driving dynamics, I am wondering if there is anyone around here who really prefers the driving dynamics of a 360 more. In P-car land, for instance, a 996 GT3 is not nearly the car a new 997.2 GT3 is; however, the "nervous" feeling of the former is often prized by their owners because of the involvement. Just wondering if same may hold with the 360/430. More questions later, but thanks for great site.

Cheers!
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post #2 of 11 Old 11-08-2011, 03:29 PM
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My 2 cents...

Both cars have the same very capable chassis under all the electronic driving aids and small tweaks to suspension geometry can work wonders for heavy track work.

The 360 and F430 share many of the same driving characteristics but the F430 feels like it is being pulled by a stronger magnet towards the horizon and feels much easier to just get in and just drive fast without much skill or thinking involved (depending on which mode your steering wheel Manetto is in!). This can be attributed to more advanced version of the software within the revised Bosch ABS/ASR system and the advanced Electronic Differential (E-Diff), the 360 doesn't have an E-Diff. It can also perform different Electronic Stability Control (ESC) programmes and uses both steering angle and yaw sensing as part of its repertoire.

The Bosch F430's stability control can intervene which the computer detects possible loss of steering control, for example from both under and oversteer conditions during poorly judged driving when one turns or tries to turn too quickly. Depending on the intervention mode (or map) selected it can also intervene when you don't want it too, say during high performance spirited driving. This is because your steering angle may not always be directly indicative (for instance dialing off some opposite lock) of the intended direction of travel, hence the system kicking in. For this reason the Manetto can be adjusted to a mode more suitable for the driving style such as 'Race mode' so it does not kick in and spoil your fun.

Since the computer can work out the direction of the skid it can apply the brakes to individual wheels asymmetrically in order to create torque about the vehicle's vertical axis, opposing the skid and bringing the car back in line with the driver's intended direction of travel. Additionally, the system may reduce engine power (ignoring the drivers throttle position - its a digital throttle not directly connected to the engine on both the 360 and 430!) or operate the F1 gearshift to slow the vehicle down (assuming its not a manual car).

Both cars have Bosch EBD (electronic brake-force distribution) so no matter how hard you tend to stomp on the brake pedal the cars hauls up to a stop with an even level of braking composure with very little weaving from left to right. The Bosch ABS computer adjusts the amount of hydraulic fluid sent to individual wheels and monitors wheels speeds to prevent slip under very heavy braking.

The Bosch ASR (Active Slip Reduction) prevents the rear wheels spinning out of control if your too heavy on the loud pedal for the level of grip available. On the 360 the electronic traction control can be set between just 2 modes, Normal or Sport. This offers a simple driver-adjustable dynamic stability control which depending on the selected mode can intervene by cutting off the torque delivered by the engine, or by the ABS system braking the rear wheels independently to re-gain grip. The Sport mode also is linked directly to the firmness of the suspension damping setting, giving the driver control of the car's lateral and longitudinal suspension setting (i.e. soft or hard suspension). Sadly the mode is not independently switchable on the 360 independent of other sport/race mode features such as faster F1 shift speeds.

In the twisty sections the F430's rear end feels easier to hustle around without requiring as much skill (depending on the mode your in) and is more tolerant of driver mistakes. The 360 feels less stable because you have to feel the weight shift under acceleration, you need to feel the steering going light on the tips of your fingers and module the throttle and the brakes more, in other words you need to drive it 'old school style' with less computer intervention. Really the computers help less experienced drivers feel more like hero's allowing a little bit of slip before hauling in the rear end but the real enjoyment comes from mastering all of this yourself. The 360 tries to do this too (but without yaw sensing and steering angle sensors so has to estimate it), it usually does a decent job so the ASR really does work well but the electronics package is much more forgiving on the F430 and can get you out of bigger messes.

Hope this helps...

Last edited by 360trev; 11-08-2011 at 03:49 PM.
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post #3 of 11 Old 11-08-2011, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
 
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That is incredibly helpful, 360trev! Thank you for taking time for the post. What you describe sounds like the difference between an older 911 with less (or zero) driver aids and a newer one. So, if I am hearing you correctly the 360 may take more skill to drive quickly and may move around more, but the feedback in the steering and the balance of the chassis is the same as the F430.
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post #4 of 11 Old 11-09-2011, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpalocco View Post
That is incredibly helpful, 360trev! Thank you for taking time for the post. What you describe sounds like the difference between an older 911 with less (or zero) driver aids and a newer one. So, if I am hearing you correctly the 360 may take more skill to drive quickly and may move around more, but the feedback in the steering and the balance of the chassis is the same as the F430.
Pretty close, although you can get the same feeling from F430 with all the aids turned off and keep the amazing traction in the bends from the E-Diff.

The only things I would recommend for more 'track feel' on the 360 is to make it more of a drivers car by fitting stiffer springs and the matching them to a stiffer rear ARB from the 430 Scuderia / CS. This also helps reduce bottoming out while allowing you to also run at a lower ride height on the factory fit Sach AF coil-over suspension.

These parts along with the Scuderia wheel geometry allow you to dial out some of the roll and pitch when pushing hard and prevent it from snap over steering on the track which is very difficult to catch indeed! (The springs are a pretty soft set up from factory so you get a lot of weight transfer ). In 911 parlance its the equivalent of doing a GT3 RS suspension upgrade

Other than that its a fantastic car to drive on the track. The other must fit upgrade is the CS TCU (if you go for F1 auto) for snappier shifting in race mode.
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post #5 of 11 Old 11-09-2011, 04:34 AM
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360tRev

Thank you so much for this post. Not owning either of these cars I knew little about the extent and operation of the various systems. Thanks to you I now have a better appreciation of the engineering involved in the design. Bioth are great cars. Nice CS you have too.

Steve

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post #6 of 11 Old 11-09-2011, 04:37 AM
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What can I add to Trev's excellent description? If you're tempted by a manual I highly recommend the manual F430. Mine is a manual and in terms of driving impressions, this car is a dream. Impossible to get bored in such car If you like heel toeing, the 430 is just such pleasure to drive and rev match, very rewarding sound and sensations even without speeding like hell. If you can afford it, go for a manual F430, you'll never regret it
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post #7 of 11 Old 11-09-2011, 05:30 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
If you're tempted by a manual I highly recommend the manual F430. Mine is a manual and in terms of driving impressions, this car is a dream.
That's good to hear. For either car, I'm committed to a manual, I think, is because 1) I do like the traditional experience and 2) I understand that the F1 may be more likely to necessitate a visit to a Ferrari dealership for any electronic issues (requires the scan tool). I'd like to minimize experiences with the dealership, plus I do not live near one.

Quote:
The Bosch F430's stability control can intervene which the computer detects possible loss of steering control, for example from both under and oversteer conditions during poorly judged driving when one turns or tries to turn too quickly.
Just to clear up, beside traction control does the 360 have any sort of true stability control like the 430 or Porsche's version (PSM)? The 996 GT3 had neither, 997.1 GT3 had TC, and the 997.2 GT3 has both TC and PSM (which can be switched off).
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post #8 of 11 Old 11-09-2011, 05:44 AM
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Nice write up on the comparisons.

The torque from the 12 cylinders work well with the F1 - seen 25k mile 612's with plenty of clutch left.

I am very spoiled by the F1 - under aggressive driving the F1 allows me to hold both hands steady on the wheel and the double shifts if required down are amazing.

Visiting the dealer last year in Vegas - head mechanic made it clear the bullet proof Ferrari was the 430 manual due to the F1's required torque for longer wear.
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post #9 of 11 Old 11-09-2011, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
 
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F430 questions

I just spoke with the seller of an 06 F430 w/ 15k miles, 6spd manual, 3 owners, transmission was replaced due to previous owner complaint of "notchiness." He said the transmission cost 40k and, presumably, was covered under warranty. I would be suspicious; however, I recently sold a newish GT3 which had transmission replaced under warranty (18k new) due to a 2nd gear pop out issue that only happened when cold. Just wondering if this sounds strange, and what the true cost of an F430 transmission.
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post #10 of 11 Old 11-09-2011, 10:31 AM
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The transmissions in the manual shifter cars are identical to those in the F1 cars, as is the clutch. In general, the transaxle has not been much of a problem in either if the transmission oil is changed annually or at least every two years. Ferrari pump driven transmissions like having fresh oil.

There is no stability control on the 360, but the ABS system is involved in the ASR (acceleration slip regulation) or traction control. The ASR will use a combination of throttle control and brakes to try and minimize rear wheel spin. The E-Diff on the F430, combined with stability control, is much more sophisticated and E-Diff works even in CST Off. It works so well, it is just like ABS, you do not want to, nor can you, turn it off. With CST Off, you can scare yourself in an F430 just as thoroughly as you can a in 360 with ASR off. Note in ASR Off, the limited slip rear end still works, and is the equivalent of the E-Diff.

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post #11 of 11 Old 11-09-2011, 01:34 PM
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It is about the best write up I have seen comparing the two models
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