Need Help with Bad 3rd Gear Synchro on 360 - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 22 Old 08-11-2009, 03:00 AM Thread Starter
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Need Help with Bad 3rd Gear Synchro on 360

It looks (and sounds) like I have bad synchro on my manual 360. One of the local dealers said he has never seen this and his estimate was high (even he thought it was more expensive than he expected). I have requests for info out to another dealer and an independent shop, but I thought I would check here for more info as well. As such:

1. Anyone on this board experience this before, such that you can tell me what it cost you to fix?

2. Does it sound right that 1-4th gear should be replaced along with 3rd (since the gearbox will be open anyway)?

3. I have a message out to the guys in Ohio that advertise in Prancing Horse, etc. Anyone ever work with NJB Automotive and have an imoression?

I would appreciate any thoughts. Louis.
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post #2 of 22 Old 08-11-2009, 08:51 AM
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It does not sound right, and it's highly doubtful.

Here's what I would do.

a) forget the dealer -find a credible independent.
b) drain the tranny completely and let drip drain for at least 15-30 minutes! What will come out will be black as coal.
c) refill with 3 quarts 75W90NS Redline gear oil only!
d) have the clutch bled well
e) have the upper transmission support bearing checked for cracks in the rubber and replace if necessary
f) drive car and report back.
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post #3 of 22 Old 08-11-2009, 12:40 PM
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Visual Evidence.

If you do have a bad syncro, then there would/should be metal fragments from the worn syncro in the trans oil. upon draining the gear oil (make sure you drive the car and bring the oil up to temperature) drain the "Hot" oil through a fine mesh screen. Check the screen for metal fragments. No fragments would be a good indicator, that the problem lays elsewhere......Mark.
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post #4 of 22 Old 08-11-2009, 01:31 PM
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No need to use a screen for draining.

360 gearboxes have a magnetic drain plug!

That should collect any particles.

I think his prob is as I have outlined.

It would take some pretty dramatic occurrence to destroys all those gears and synchros.

Sounds like a repair shop is looking to keep busy!

Last edited by Gcalo; 08-11-2009 at 01:39 PM.
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post #5 of 22 Old 08-11-2009, 01:42 PM
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Not Attractive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcalo View Post
No need to use a screen for draining.

360 gearboxes have a magnetic drain plug!

That should collect any particles.

I think his prob is as I have outlined.

It would take some pretty dramatic occurrence to destroys all those gears and synchros.

Soundfs like a reapir shop is looking to keep busy!
Since I believe that synchros are made out of a softer metal (brass) and brass is non-magnetic, the metal fragments would not be attracted to the magnetic drain plug.....Mark.
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post #6 of 22 Old 08-11-2009, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louman3 View Post
It looks (and sounds) like I have bad synchro on my manual 360. One of the local dealers said he has never seen this and his estimate was high (even he thought it was more expensive than he expected). I have requests for info out to another dealer and an independent shop, but I thought I would check here for more info as well. As such:

1. Anyone on this board experience this before, such that you can tell me what it cost you to fix?

I would appreciate any thoughts. Louis.
No and have never heard of it happening.
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post #7 of 22 Old 08-11-2009, 01:51 PM
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Good point about the synchros but they would not disintegrate to that point. If they did that gearbox would lock up.

I think his prob is primarily bad lube and possibly a bad upper trannny mount.
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post #8 of 22 Old 08-11-2009, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcalo View Post
Good point about the synchros but they would not disintegrate to that point. If they did that gearbox would lock up.

I think his prob is primarily bad lube and possibly a bad upper trannny mount.
Could be the tranny mount putting everything out of alignment.
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post #9 of 22 Old 08-12-2009, 05:47 AM
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Yes that and bad gear oil as well.
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post #10 of 22 Old 08-13-2009, 10:44 AM
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Lou

Any update on this issue?
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post #11 of 22 Old 08-24-2009, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
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It is nice to be special, but.....

I did in fact have the first bad synchro that anyone had heard of in a 360. Following the advice from Greg yielded no improvement, so I had the gear box opened up. Sure enough, the third and fourth synchro was busted. No metal in the oil BTW (when drained, I forgot to ask if they found it when they opened up the gear box). My independent quotes were not much less than the local dealer that everyone raves about (Continental), so I went with them since they are known for helping owners out when they can (e.g. getting Ferrari NA to step up when the other local dealer claims a repair is out of warranty and stuff like that). Anyway, it wasn't cheap but shifts like a dream now. The issue probably would not have come up for a couple of years if I had not spent a day at the track, but I am still glad I went. I probably should have been double clutching though. I also had them replace the clutch plate while they were in there (it added almost no labor), so I hope I have seen the last of transmission problems with this car. Thanks for the advice gang.
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post #12 of 22 Old 08-24-2009, 12:34 PM
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Something makes no sense here. You said "busted" synchro and no metal bits in the oil! Granted the synchros are brass and will not be attracted to the oil drain magnet, but there should be particles in the oil if they were "busted"!

Lou I don't buy all of this.

I think you had bad oil in there (or low oil for a while which cooked the synchros) for too long which may have caused your problems. I suspect your transmission cooler is bad or going bad or the oil pump in the tranny is weak. The transmission oil cooler is the area upon which I am working cause it causes tranny probs.

They should have sent some of that oil to a lab for analysis.

For some reason you cooked the synchros, and that is very, very rare.

Fixing the situation w/o knowing the cause of the problem could result in a repeat or additional problems.

Ask questions.
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post #13 of 22 Old 08-24-2009, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louman3 View Post
I did in fact have the first bad synchro that anyone had heard of in a 360. Following the advice from Greg yielded no improvement, so I had the gear box opened up. Sure enough, the third and fourth synchro was busted. No metal in the oil BTW (when drained, I forgot to ask if they found it when they opened up the gear box). My independent quotes were not much less than the local dealer that everyone raves about (Continental), so I went with them since they are known for helping owners out when they can (e.g. getting Ferrari NA to step up when the other local dealer claims a repair is out of warranty and stuff like that). Anyway, it wasn't cheap but shifts like a dream now. The issue probably would not have come up for a couple of years if I had not spent a day at the track, but I am still glad I went. I probably should have been double clutching though. I also had them replace the clutch plate while they were in there (it added almost no labor), so I hope I have seen the last of transmission problems with this car. Thanks for the advice gang.
Sorry to hear this...and wondering.

This is very valuable with pics to point out the items.

Please make sure we get some idea of what's going on, pics are great.

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post #14 of 22 Old 08-24-2009, 02:01 PM
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Houdini Synros

Since I have never heard of "Vanishing metal Particles", I too, would wonder where are the remenants of the 2 bad synros?. Does this particular transmission have an internal filter, where the particles could have accumulated/trapped?. Was the ENTIRE transmission oil cooling system flushed to remove all metals?. Since this was the "FIRST" transmission to experience bad synros....Where are the INFAMOUS!!!!! "Bad Synros"?????. I would have wanted(demanded) to see the 2 bad synros....,Did you see them?. If this is such a "Rare" (THE FIRST???),occurance, you would think that Ferrari/Mechanic would want to see them/keep them. I do not want to infer that "the wool was pulled over your eyes", But "I" would want these questions answered to my satisfaction.....Mark.
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post #15 of 22 Old 08-24-2009, 03:29 PM
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Mark,

There is a very small filter in the rear of the box. It's about 3/4" - 1" in diameter of plastic with a screen.

If there had been a ton of particles they would have blocked this filter.

I am just very suspect about the finding.

It still sounds to me as if the oil was very low, very hot, and very dirty!

I would want to see those parts as well.

Lou, we are fighting for you.
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post #16 of 22 Old 09-15-2009, 05:08 PM
 
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Hey Louman

I caught this thread late but for out of warranty service, I've heard good things about Autosprint.

http://www.autosprint-imports.com/
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post #17 of 22 Old 09-15-2009, 06:34 PM
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I had this problem with my car

Hello, i had this problem with my 2003 360 modena. it only has 8k miles on it but whenever i shifted into 3rd gear (revs up) I would get grinding. I took it too an independent dealer here in san diego, and they told me exact what was wrong. The nice thing is they brought me into the shop while the tranny was apart and physically showed me the burnt out synchro ring. i also fired out questions for about an hour on what may have caused this. They believe someone either crashed the gear really hard or was shifting out of 4th gear and accidently shifted into 3rd missing the 5th gear at high revs. This would have burnt out the synchro ring. They even gave me the bad synchro ring and boy does it smell bad and look completely charcoled.

It took them about 2 weeks to fix the 3rd synchro and cost right at $4700. A high price i guess, but it beats having to replace the tranny, and now my car runs like an absolute champ!!!

These guys in San Diego also want me to bring the car back in after 500 miles to check the seals and make sure everything looks sweet. I think this is great service, and this is what you want from a ferrari dealer. Well louman, let me know if you have any questions about my fix.

djprep

my post on fca was this:

http://www.ferrariclubofamerica.org/...&threadid=1995


Quote:
Originally Posted by louman3 View Post
I did in fact have the first bad synchro that anyone had heard of in a 360. Following the advice from Greg yielded no improvement, so I had the gear box opened up. Sure enough, the third and fourth synchro was busted. No metal in the oil BTW (when drained, I forgot to ask if they found it when they opened up the gear box). My independent quotes were not much less than the local dealer that everyone raves about (Continental), so I went with them since they are known for helping owners out when they can (e.g. getting Ferrari NA to step up when the other local dealer claims a repair is out of warranty and stuff like that). Anyway, it wasn't cheap but shifts like a dream now. The issue probably would not have come up for a couple of years if I had not spent a day at the track, but I am still glad I went. I probably should have been double clutching though. I also had them replace the clutch plate while they were in there (it added almost no labor), so I hope I have seen the last of transmission problems with this car. Thanks for the advice gang.
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post #18 of 22 Old 09-26-2009, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djprep View Post
Hello, i had this problem with my 2003 360 modena. it only has 8k miles on it but whenever i shifted into 3rd gear (revs up) I would get grinding. I took it too an independent dealer here in san diego, and they told me exact what was wrong. The nice thing is they brought me into the shop while the tranny was apart and physically showed me the burnt out synchro ring. i also fired out questions for about an hour on what may have caused this. They believe someone either crashed the gear really hard or was shifting out of 4th gear and accidently shifted into 3rd missing the 5th gear at high revs. This would have burnt out the synchro ring. They even gave me the bad synchro ring and boy does it smell bad and look completely charcoled.

It took them about 2 weeks to fix the 3rd synchro and cost right at $4700. A high price i guess, but it beats having to replace the tranny, and now my car runs like an absolute champ!!!

These guys in San Diego also want me to bring the car back in after 500 miles to check the seals and make sure everything looks sweet. I think this is great service, and this is what you want from a ferrari dealer. Well louman, let me know if you have any questions about my fix.

djprep
Sounds like the guys in San Diego did a top notch job.
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post #19 of 22 Old 01-11-2010, 01:21 PM
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mechanic in San Diego

Yes the guys in san diego did a great job. Let me know if any of you guys need a top notch mechanic in san diego.
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post #20 of 22 Old 01-11-2010, 01:32 PM
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Syncro ring...That is a common item on 348/355's too. Since near the rear of tranny, guess this makes sense.

ALWAYS try to instpect them on the engine out, efen if we originally talking a 360.

Also, on 348/355 series, check the rear nut for loosening. Some were not pressed/torqued on correctly at factory and come off. Some were done correctly...seems from what we see is a change in proceedure for the models mid production until they went back to tried and true methods.

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1990 Mondial T Cabriolet SN 86247 : Red/Tan
1995 456 GT 2+2 SN 99987 : Roso Metalizzato [Fer 311/C] & Tan

Last edited by Granucci; 01-11-2010 at 03:18 PM.
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