Newbie looking for a 360 Modena - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 18 Old 06-13-2009, 06:10 AM Thread Starter
 
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Newbie looking for a 360 Modena

Reading a few posts and starting to get a good feel for what to look for but have a few questions:

1- I read that finding a 6-speed manual would be best because of the cost\issues with the F1. Problem is that it seems that when I find a color scheme I am looking for with the options I want it usually is a F1. Should I just keep looking until I find the 6-speed? Guess my question is how important is it to avoid the F1.

2-what are the interval\mileage points for services. Looks like 15k, 30k,???

3- I work on my Porsche (oil changes, brakes, replace filters etc) can I do the same on the 360? I am sure getting a dealer to stamp you maintence book is best but I have no plans to sell the 360.

4- Most of the 360's I see are being sold by 3rd party dealers, how can I get up to speed on what questions to ask and what to look for. Is it as straight forward as knowing the correct service was done for the scheduled manintence.

5- I see 360's that are from 1999-2004 and they look the same to me. Were there no changes (minor) between the years? Even the pricing is about the same. Any years to avoid?


Thank you!
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post #2 of 18 Old 06-13-2009, 08:31 AM
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Well you ask a connundum of regulary asked questions.

1) F1 is a neat idea but not for a street car. It was designe dfor a race car that rarely stops. Maintenance can be high and clutch life is low. Find a 6 speed.

2) services are stated as 15k, 30K, etc but regular maintenance is critical- engine and tranny oil at least once a year. Timing belts are 3 years or 30K miles. Well that's always 3-4 years.

3) Forget dealer stamps. If you are competent do your own work.

4) You need to do your homework. Read the 360 threads here and get a copy of Andrew's "Buyer's Portfolio" and you can download the specific sections on the site here. There are issues that must me acknowledged before you buy. Most really center around maintenance of belts, etc. and cam timning variators on the 99 and early 2000 models

5) No body changes but very miinor other chnages not even worth considering. 99's have no pre-cats so they are a bit lighter and slightly peppier but it's minimal. No years to avoid. How can anyone avoid a Ferrari?

Great cars and tons of fun. Take your time, become knowledgeable, and don't buy the first one you find.

Hope this helps.

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post #3 of 18 Old 06-13-2009, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks so much, very helpful.

Are there diag tools available for the 360 that I can purchase? On my porsche I have a durametric ECU\USB cable that allows me to reset service reminders etc. I guess what I am getting at is there anything I can't self service. For example on a Bentley GT continental, Bentley has a special tool (thousands of dollars if you can find a dealer to sell you one, that takes off the rear rotors..in other words they make you go to the dealer for service.

Also is there board sponsor or company that Ferrari owners use to get things like new belts,etc. In the Porsche world their is a dealer in Oregon that sells things at cost+5%....sorry about all the Porsche references, trying to get into the Ferrari world and want to know what i am getting into :-)
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post #4 of 18 Old 06-13-2009, 10:07 AM
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As to diagnostic tools Ferrari uses a device called and SD/2. It is exclusive to Ferrari and costs $20K - $25K! Not your handyman's tool.

There are no independant vendors of this system either and I have tried to encourage a source in Europe to do so. They say it's too complex and they would not sell enough to warrant the investment.

Porsche has sold over 100K 997 models alone. Ferrari sold less than 18,000 cars for the whole 5 year 360 production!

So for electronic overrides you are stuck unfortunately.

As to parts there are always site sponsors such as Ricambi but you'll find that pricing is pretty similar at your local Ferrari dealer. There are no independent OEM parts sources as there are for most other vehicles. Belts are about $126.00 each but the tensioner bearing as $500/set!

Ricambi will have tools others may not have like the oil filter socket for removal and reinstallation. Torquing that filter to 18.5 ft-lbs is extremely critical!

Ferrari parts are not cheap.

You need a workshop manual. It is invaluable. They are available on CD.

It is an easy car on which to work.

I do all my own maintenance. If you are skilled and careful there is little you cannot do.
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post #5 of 18 Old 06-13-2009, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
 
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Got it. Thank you very insightful.
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post #6 of 18 Old 06-13-2009, 10:33 AM
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I know the cars well.

So anything else just hollar.
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post #7 of 18 Old 06-13-2009, 01:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gcalo View Post
...

Ferrari parts are not cheap.

You need a workshop manual. It is invaluable. They are available on CD.

....

I live in So Cal.

Where would you recommend to find Ferrari parts for either a 360 or an F430at?

I've been checking the web, I found a repair dvd for a 360 on ebay for $24. I spotted repair manuals for the F430. They run in the mid-700. Where can I go to fetch a complete manual @ without over paying?

$24 360 manual
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FERRA...1%7C240%3A1318

$700 F430 manual
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferra...5%7C240%3A1318
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post #8 of 18 Old 06-13-2009, 01:46 PM
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You have 3 Ferrari dealers down there. So parts should not be a problem. It makes sense to buy from Ferrari delaers there cause you have no freight or shipping delays.

For the unusual items you can contact Daniel at http://www.ricambiamerica.com/.

Oil filters use only the OEM. They are $45-$50 but don't chance any replacements.

For engine oil use 5W40 Redline. For tranny/gearbox Redline 75W90NS with a 4 0z bottle of Friction Modifier. Change every 12 months max! BOTH!

Make sure you have a very good torque wrench and purchase the OFT-02 from Ricambi. It's the oil filter wrench for 348's thru 430's. The filters for botha re different as are the oil change procedures.

If you want the engine and tranny oil chage procedures send me an e-mail address and I'll send the .pdf's. They are very complete and helpful.

W/S manuals for 360 and 430 should be available around $30 - $40 each. Google Ferrari 360 Workshop Manual etc. $700.00! Definitely not.

Let me know if anything else.
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post #9 of 18 Old 06-13-2009, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
 
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I noticed alot of the 360 for sale are either approaching the 15k service (11-14k miles on them) or approaching the 30k service (25k miles or so). When negotiating I would like to know what the costs for those services from an authorized Ferrari tech are (roughly) for those service intervals assuming no other issues
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post #10 of 18 Old 06-13-2009, 09:21 PM
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On average, $3.5K =15K and $6K = 30K.
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post #11 of 18 Old 06-15-2009, 03:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gcalo View Post

Let me know if anything else.
I definitely will!

Thank you in advance. I enjoy both your informative blogs and occasional jabs @ Chris.

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post #12 of 18 Old 06-15-2009, 07:26 AM
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I think Gcalo's advice is generally sound although I see a few small things differently.

Even as a life-long 3-peddle guy, I found the 360 F1 transmission to be superb. It's astonishing smoothness and effortless precision must really be experienced to be appreciated. I find the F1 much better on the street than 3 peddles, especially in heavy traffic where lots of shifting is needed. It's true the F1 was developed for racing and is clearly superior there (meaning faster around the track) but it also saves a lot of left leg action in heavy traffic. The notion that 6-speed clutches last longer than F1 clutches is really a matter of proper adjustment and driving style. Clutch wear in a properly driven F1 has proven to be the same as a properly driven 6-speed. Any knowledgeable driver who gets good mileage from his manual Ferrari (or Porsche) clutches can easily get the same high mileage from his 360 F1 clutch.

There is no doubt the F1 is more complex than a 6-speed and can (emphasize *can*) be more expensive, especially if routine maintenance is neglected. Also, clutch replacement is certainly trickier and should only be done by a well trained and experienced technician using the factory SD/2 or SD/3 (now actually SD/4) computer for proper installation and adjustment. Improper adjustment is the other big factor (besides driving style) which affects F1 clutch life so plan on factory trained maintenance only for your F1.

I believe DIY for routine maintenance on your 360 is fine but "by the book" is especially important because of the many subtleties used to achieve the outlandish performance of a car like the 360. A special torque wrench just to screw on a silly oil filter mentioned by Gcalo above is a good example. An example of how serious it can be is the guy who installed a clutch in his 360 6-speed (F1 clutch DIY is really not an option) which resulted in total engine meltdown 3 weeks later. Even though he thought he was only working on the clutch, he unwittingly introduced blockage of main engine oil circulation to the bottom of the front two cylinders. Since it's a dry sump engine, both rod bearings and crank journal were toasted resulting in valve crash resulting in bent heads, etc., etc.

I agree all 360s can (emphasize *can*) be equal, but there are some model year issues to watch for. Several very serious problems were discovered in early models which were corrected by subsequent factory "campaigns", and there were a couple very nice upgrades in later models too. Starting with MY'02 everything was fixed and upgraded from the factory so the trick is insuring *all* campaigns have really *really* been done if you're looking at a '99 to '01 car. It's not difficult to be sure an earlier car has all campaigns and/or upgrades installed, but extra due diligence is definitely required for them.

By the way, my 360 has been fantastic -- the more I drive it the better it runs. Dead nuts reliable and what a hoot to drive. Best of luck!

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post #13 of 18 Old 06-15-2009, 07:28 AM
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---I enjoy both your informative blogs and occasional jabs @ Chris.
Andrew created this site just so we could jab at Chris!!!
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post #14 of 18 Old 06-16-2009, 09:12 AM
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---An example of how serious it can be is the guy who installed a clutch in his 360 6-speed (F1 clutch DIY is really not an option) which resulted in total engine meltdown 3 weeks later. ---
Wow I just noticed this.

Who did this? And how could he cause an oil blockage?
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post #15 of 18 Old 06-16-2009, 11:16 AM
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Who did this? And how could he cause an oil blockage?
The whole sad story (including how work on a 360 manual clutch can affect engine oil circulation) is scattered over nearly a year and a dozen threads on another board under the username "billwann". He attained cult status in the DIY community but disappeared when the extent of the disaster resulting from his DIY became clear.

The point is not to bash this guy or discourage DIY. The point is that the Ferrari 360 is a sophisticated system of complex interlocking subsystems where interactions among subsystems is not always clear. It's probably wise to approach DIY cautiously with good documentation and there may still be significant risks.

"Fear of guns is a sure sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." -- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis, 1906.
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post #16 of 18 Old 06-16-2009, 12:52 PM
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I know who he is. He and I spoke of the clutch change process while he was doing it.

I believe the problem is that he had his 17 year old neighbor doing much of the work, and I do not think he supervised him properly.

Bill is very competent mechanically so this surprises me. Boy this was a costly mistake for him.

That explains why at a later date he was looking for a 360 block. I never put that together or read about the fiasco!

Working on a Ferrari requires time and diligence always.

Last edited by Gcalo; 06-16-2009 at 01:20 PM.
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post #17 of 18 Old 06-17-2009, 04:26 AM
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By the way, my 360 has been fantastic -- the more I drive it the better it runs. Dead nuts reliable and what a hoot to drive. Best of luck!
Could not agree more. Just put 4320 KM on mine in the last week and it performed flawlessly.
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post #18 of 18 Old 06-17-2009, 05:25 AM
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.... Just put 4320 KM on mine in the last week....
You DaMan!!

"Fear of guns is a sure sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." -- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis, 1906.
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