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seanc 10-06-2015 04:06 AM

Engine oil analysis
 
1 Attachment(s)
we have an analysis report from a 550 F133A engine that shows elevated copper. anyone else have a report for comparison? many thx!

tazandjan 10-06-2015 09:03 AM

Possibly caused by worn valve guides from one of the soft sets installed by Ferrari. Closer to copper than bronze.

seanc 10-06-2015 10:40 AM

what about big end or main bearings?

tazandjan 10-06-2015 12:04 PM

Easy to see if it's guides with a leak down and compression test.

seanc 10-06-2015 12:30 PM

good point

550_Maranello 10-06-2015 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanc (Post 662553)
good point

Hi, what is the mileage of the engine? And what is the oil comsumption?
Best

seanc 10-06-2015 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 550_Maranello (Post 662561)
Hi, what is the mileage of the engine? And what is the oil comsumption?
Best

close to 45k miles. oil consumption is like zero.

lucca brazzi 10-06-2015 07:02 PM

guides
 
worn valve guides at 45 k miles,,that would suck,,,I thought Ferrari stopped using brass,,or any other soft metals for valve guides with the F355,,

cribbj 10-07-2015 12:27 AM

With my guide issues I was consuming a quart every 600-800 miles, so well within spec. For me, the tipoff was the visual inspection I did of the intake ports, once I had the intake manifold off - the backs of the valves were heavily fouled and the whole bowl area was too.

I did have dodgy leakdown readings as well, however those were being caused by stuck rings on two of the pistons, not the guides.

After pulling the heads and measuring the wear, we had over 3x the max allowable wear readings recommended by the factory, and others.

This was on a 550 with only 15K miles......

David @ FluentInFerrari 10-07-2015 03:12 AM

4 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucca brazzi (Post 662609)
...I thought Ferrari stopped using brass,,or any other soft metals for valve guides with the F355.

A nice thought, but simply not true. I did guides in a 2000 456-M two years ago with 15K miles. She was burning oil at a rate of about a quart in 200 miles. The guides were so loose that that valves would rattle in them. On the plus side, cylinder-only leakage was excellent. Regardless, a monster job in terms of time and expense...

dave rocks 10-07-2015 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazandjan (Post 662529)
Easy to see if it's guides with a leak down and compression test.


Not entirely true, Terry.

See this video of my project car and my inspection of the guides. The guides are fine. Carbon build up / corrosion caused the poor compression and leak down.


More detail here: http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/pr...5-f355-30.html

tazandjan 10-07-2015 08:48 AM

Ferrari updated the guides on the F355 to sintered steel late in production, but never did on the 456M or 550.

Dave- True, not 100% on the leak down test, but a good indication something is wrong and part of the diagnosis trail.

dave rocks 10-07-2015 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazandjan (Post 662793)
Ferrari updated the guides on the F355 to sintered steel late in production, but never did on the 456M or 550.

Dave- True, not 100% on the leak down test, but a good indication something is wrong and part of the diagnosis trail.

Terry - agreed. But, I'd bet that many folks paid for head rebuilds when failed guides where improperly diagnosed with only leak down and compression tests.

David @ FluentInFerrari 10-07-2015 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazandjan (Post 662793)
True, not 100% on the leak down test, but a good indication something is wrong and part of the diagnosis trail.

It's just one of the many diagnostic tools and visual indicators giving us direction as to the next step. In the case of the 456, the visual indicators coupled with the leak down results and the owner's observations, warranted the subsequent repairs. Although an oil analysis was not done, I suspect that it would be quite high in Copper content.

seanc 10-07-2015 10:56 AM

thanks guys for all the info! the only place I thought the copper could come from was the bearings, which got me really worried. if the valve guides are a possible source, lightly elevated copper which I consider 20ppm to be, could be perfectly normal. has anyone had the bearings replaced? how did they look/miles?

dave rocks 10-07-2015 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari (Post 662833)
It's just one of the many diagnostic tools and visual indicators giving us direction as to the next step.

Bingo, Dave :)

But, for techs not as detailed as you, there is no next step of diagnosis. The next step for them is rebuild the heads (replace guides) at whatever cost they sold to the customer.

john85QV 10-07-2015 11:13 AM

So how is copper content in oil related to valve guide condition? That is, suppose I start with new guides. I run the engine at some condition for 1000 miles and then analyze the oil for copper content. Then I change the oil and run the engine under the same conditions for another 1000 miles and analyze the copper content of the oil. Will it be greater than that for the first 1k miles because the guides had 1k miles of wear on them? And how about the next 1k miles, and so on. Is the copper content in the oil a function of how warn the guides are, or is it more a function of how long you go between oil changes? If rate of wear is constant then it would only depend on length of time (miles) between oil changes. If rate of wear increase with wear, then you would expect to see copper content increase with wear over a given period of time or mileage. Then again, how does it vary with operating conditions: rpm, temperature, type of oil, .... I think you would have to have some very specific operating conditions and/or long term data to make any conclusions about how warn guides are from an oil copper content analysis.

dave rocks 10-07-2015 11:21 AM

Interesting post, John.

David @ FluentInFerrari 10-07-2015 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john85QV (Post 662857)
.... I think you would have to have some very specific operating conditions and/or long term data to make any conclusions about how warn guides are from an oil copper content analysis.

Exactly. I use the folks at Blackstone Labs and they seem to have an extensive database/knowledge of what "normal" levels are.

seanc 10-07-2015 11:50 AM

david could you check your reports to see what type copper content you usually see? that would be very nice of you ?

@john, you are spot on. although apart from the initial few k where the copper will probably leach the readings will progressivly scale with wear


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