599 GTO, to buy ? - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 30 Old 08-23-2015, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
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599 GTO, to buy ?

Hi all,

I'm here another time for a question not so easy. In your opinion, do you think that could be a great move buy a GTO ? Overall in this period, during which prices are very very high.
I don't know, from a side it's always an icon for Ferrari, it's a GTO; but from other side, in this years i've had impression that this model was less important than others supercar of past as Enzo, F40, 288 ecc.
Perhaps only because is more modern ?
Actually i'll could sell a car and immediately after buy this one for the same price, more or less.
All this always speculatively speaking, for another future of high prices.

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post #2 of 30 Old 08-23-2015, 06:37 PM
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Depends if they name the new F12 GTO.

The name holds a lot of value - today.

It's best to get what you like first and what may appreciate second.

The 599 GTO is five years old - the others you mentioned are decades most sitting in collections and barely see the light of day.
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post #3 of 30 Old 08-23-2015, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
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599 GTO, to buy ?

Yes, you've reason.
I hope they will not name F12 GTO. It have non sense.

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post #4 of 30 Old 08-24-2015, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by il ferrarista View Post
Yes, you've reason.
I hope they will not name F12 GTO. It have non sense.
For the 599 GTO owners - hope you are right.
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post #5 of 30 Old 08-24-2015, 04:54 AM
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For the 599 GTO owners - hope you are right.
Guys that have ordered them have been told it will be called Version Speciale

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post #6 of 30 Old 08-24-2015, 02:06 PM
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While the 599 GTO is a fantastic car, I wonder if long term values will be punished because the GTO nomenclature is purely marketing since this car was never built as a homologation special like the 250 and 288.
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post #7 of 30 Old 08-24-2015, 03:35 PM
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While the 599 GTO is a fantastic car, I wonder if long term values will be punished because the GTO nomenclature is purely marketing since this car was never built as a homologation special like the 250 and 288.
One would think - yes.

I missed buying one new then again low 400's got close couldn't justify the price difference of the HGTE but it is a very cool Ferrari.

David - officially no word I think it's going to be something else not VS.
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post #8 of 30 Old 10-01-2015, 03:13 AM
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I'm with sss.
This GTO sounds more "commercial choice" than the old Ferrari used to be. Nowadays, these Ferrari are changing quite fast and no one (maybe except 458) has taken a very big name value.
599 was fast, GTO faster, F12 faster and the Speciale F12 fastest (except LaFerrari, I think).
Also the Enzo was beaten in just a few years from the ordinary Ferrari like F12, so ... why these cars should become a icon like F40, or Ferrari before ?!
I should point my finger to 458 speciale: the most beautiful Ferrari made in the last 10 years, wonderful to drive and probably the last not turbocharged. It's not a GTO, sure ...
I admin here someone says price for 599 GTO are growing ... maybe I'm wrong ...

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post #9 of 30 Old 10-01-2015, 06:29 AM
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Values for the 599 GTO have held firm and risen quite dramatically in Canada, where over the last few months I saw one for sale at the local official Ferrari outlet for $800,000.00 despite that fact that they are selling the more powerful new F12 for substantially less. My gut tells me that the 599 GTO will hold its value and become to be recognized as unique aside from the 599 range, just as the 288 GTO is considered unique aside from the 308/328 range, and perhaps become recognized as the end of the Enzo engine era (because as you know the 599 housed the Enzo engine).
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post #10 of 30 Old 10-01-2015, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by tifosi_ View Post
Values for the 599 GTO have held firm and risen quite dramatically in Canada, where over the last few months I saw one for sale at the local official Ferrari outlet for $800,000.00 despite that fact that they are selling the more powerful new F12 for substantially less. My gut tells me that the 599 GTO will hold its value and become to be recognized as unique aside from the 599 range, just as the 288 GTO is considered unique aside from the 308/328 range, and perhaps become recognized as the end of the Enzo engine era (because as you know the 599 housed the Enzo engine).
I agree Clyde

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post #11 of 30 Old 10-01-2015, 08:34 AM
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The 599 will never been one of the (currently) Big 5. It is a limited edition 599 and not a design from scratch. The comparison with the 288GTO is very contrived; the 288GTO was built for Group B racing and has virtually no shared DNA with the 308/328. It was also the very first supercar Ferrari built for a very limited customer base.

In the current market it is a bit hard to say, but I firmly believe the 599GTO will be seen similar to the 550 Barchetta, not the 288/F40/F50/Enzo/LaF gaggle.


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post #12 of 30 Old 10-01-2015, 08:36 AM
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BTW, I'm pretty sure the 599GTO did not house the Enzo engine, it housed an improvement on the 599GTB engine, which was based on the Enzo engine.


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post #13 of 30 Old 10-01-2015, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by il ferrarista View Post
Yes, you've reason.
I hope they will not name F12 GTO. It have non sense.
Didn't make ANY sense for the 599 either.


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post #14 of 30 Old 10-01-2015, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
The 599 will never been one of the (currently) Big 5. It is a limited edition 599 and not a design from scratch. The comparison with the 288GTO is very contrived; the 288GTO was built for Group B racing and has virtually no shared DNA with the 308/328. It was also the very first supercar Ferrari built for a very limited customer base.

In the current market it is a bit hard to say, but I firmly believe the 599GTO will be seen similar to the 550 Barchetta, not the 288/F40/F50/Enzo/LaF gaggle.


Onno
The 599 GTO was supposedly developed as a direct result of the 599 XX program, and though that was not a car designed to drive in competition with other marques, it was both an experimental and race equipped vehicle that only a few handfuls of very lucky customers got to drive in anger on a track. Ferrari used it as the basis for the very special GTO version of the 599. Do you really think that this car will be thought of as just another variation of the 599 GTB as the 550 Barchetta is thought of as a drop top version of the 550 Maranello? I don't think so, but of course its only supposition at this point in time. I mean, look at it, listen to it!

Last edited by tifosi_; 10-01-2015 at 06:07 PM.
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post #15 of 30 Old 10-01-2015, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
BTW, I'm pretty sure the 599GTO did not house the Enzo engine, it housed an improvement on the 599GTB engine, which was based on the Enzo engine.


Onno
This is a quote directly from Ferrari's website on the 599:
"The Ferrari 599 GTB Fioranoís engine is a 65į V12 with a 5999 cm3 displacement that delivers a specific power output of 103 hp/litre. Its architecture was derived directly from the Enzoís. A further development of the same engine, this time for track-only use, was used on the recent Ferrari FXX also. The basic architecture of the Enzo engine was retained (block, cylinder heads, sump and combustion chamber geometries) while new components and subassemblies were designed to yield high engine revs, significantly reduce weight and optimise its distribution,and yield a more compact power unit."
I guess you're wrong, it was derived directly from the Enzo.
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post #16 of 30 Old 10-01-2015, 06:26 PM
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Didn't make ANY sense for the 599 either.


Onno
I am not sure why you say that the GTO name did not deserve to be on the special edition of the 599? If you compare the 599 GTO to the original 250 GTO rather than the special edition 288 GTO to me it has as much relevance or more.
True the 250 GTO was a racing model but its genesis can be sourced back to the original 250 GT Europa or GT Boano or Elena road cars. The 288 GTO may have originally been conceived to be a racing car developed on the back of the 308/328 road cars, and yes highly modified almost beyond recognition, but since the series it was intended for was dropped the final version that ended up becoming available for the street, as special as it was, was not a racing car but a street car. As far as I know not one was ever raced. Also it had a mid-engine turbo that bore little resemblance to the original 12 cyl. front engine 250 GTO save a few side slats. I am not trying to diminish the importance of the great machine that the 288 GTO was that also begat the great F40, etc..., but just trying to make a point. The 599 GTO has the same front engine 12 cyl layout as did the original 250 GTO, and was developed off a special Ferrari customer program of the 599 XX that involved racing, though admittedly only for the wealthy clients that could afford to be part of the program. So I am wondering why would it not therefore have as much or even more of a connection to the original GTO moniker. Food for thought.
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post #17 of 30 Old 10-01-2015, 08:12 PM
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For some reason the quote button is not working.

But if you read the Ferrari website text properly, you see that they are in agreement with me (but a little economical with the truth).

The statement was that the 599GTO had the Enzo engine. I said it was DERIVED from the Enzo engine. The Ferrari website conveniently skips the step that the Enzo engine had to be adjusted for the 599GTB, and that it was this engine that was improved for the 599GTO (and earlier for the 599XX). That doesn't make for easy reading, so they skipped that step.

The engine code for the Enzo: F140 B
For the 599GTB: F140 C
For the 599GTO: F140 CE.

E stands for Evoluzione, an evolution of the 599GTB engine. This does not diminish the fact that the engine is almost the same as an Enzo engine. I was just trying to give a slight correction.

As for the GTO moniker: it was previously only used for cars specifically designed for competition (the O stands for Omologato, homologation), where the rules of the racing class required that road cars be built. In the case of the 250GTO, Enzo Ferrari was required to build 100 cars. He cheated with the chassis numbers (we all know, I hope, only 36 were built), and so he fell out with the governing body and as a result he did not compete in the GT class the following year. In the case of the 288GTO, 500 road cars were required but because the Group B racing never happened, only 272 road cars were built.

The 599GTO was never a homologation car designed for racing, and as such the moniker is nonsensical. The "O" in GTO has no meaning at all. There was no homologation. And the GTO moinker was used on two cars that were designed from scratch. The 599GTO was just a "Speciale with 12 cylinders". There is nothing inherently unique about it.

But you see why they did it. They wanted customers to fall into the trap that you have fallen into. People just believe marketing. Make "only" 500 of something and suddenly people think it is just as special as an Enzo. You see this phenomenon with 16M or Barchetta owners too.

I love the 599GTO but let's keep some perspective. Just because the marketing department stuck 3 letters on it does not a hypercar make. Regular clients could buy the 599GTO when new, but they could not buy a LaFerrari/Enzo/F40/288GTO. They are in a totally different league, price wise, but also status wise. And they should be.

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post #18 of 30 Old 10-02-2015, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
For some reason the quote button is not working.

But if you read the Ferrari website text properly, you see that they are in agreement with me (but a little economical with the truth).

The statement was that the 599GTO had the Enzo engine. I said it was DERIVED from the Enzo engine. The Ferrari website conveniently skips the step that the Enzo engine had to be adjusted for the 599GTB, and that it was this engine that was improved for the 599GTO (and earlier for the 599XX). That doesn't make for easy reading, so they skipped that step.

The engine code for the Enzo: F140 B
For the 599GTB: F140 C
For the 599GTO: F140 CE.

E stands for Evoluzione, an evolution of the 599GTB engine. This does not diminish the fact that the engine is almost the same as an Enzo engine. I was just trying to give a slight correction.

As for the GTO moniker: it was previously only used for cars specifically designed for competition (the O stands for Omologato, homologation), where the rules of the racing class required that road cars be built. In the case of the 250GTO, Enzo Ferrari was required to build 100 cars. He cheated with the chassis numbers (we all know, I hope, only 36 were built), and so he fell out with the governing body and as a result he did not compete in the GT class the following year. In the case of the 288GTO, 500 road cars were required but because the Group B racing never happened, only 272 road cars were built.

The 599GTO was never a homologation car designed for racing, and as such the moniker is nonsensical. The "O" in GTO has no meaning at all. There was no homologation. And the GTO moinker was used on two cars that were designed from scratch. The 599GTO was just a "Speciale with 12 cylinders". There is nothing inherently unique about it.

But you see why they did it. They wanted customers to fall into the trap that you have fallen into. People just believe marketing. Make "only" 500 of something and suddenly people think it is just as special as an Enzo. You see this phenomenon with 16M or Barchetta owners too.

I love the 599GTO but let's keep some perspective. Just because the marketing department stuck 3 letters on it does not a hypercar make. Regular clients could buy the 599GTO when new, but they could not buy a LaFerrari/Enzo/F40/288GTO. They are in a totally different league, price wise, but also status wise. And they should be.

Onno
My previous post was responding to your quote directly which read
ďBTW, I'm pretty sure the 599GTO did not house the Enzo engine, it housed an improvement on the 599GTB engine, which was based on the Enzo engine.Ē
Of course it wasnít the exact Enzo engine, I even said it was a derivation of the Enzo engine. The original Enzo engine was taller as they didnít have to worry about blocking forward vision, but its still based on the Enzo engine. Your notation of the engine codes makes it clear. So basically here we are just saying the same thing with different wording.
As for the GTO moniker, as Iíve said the version of the 288 that was sold to the public when Ferrari was stuck with 272 odd cars that couldnít be used for the originally intended race series that was dropped by the FIA would not have been considered a homologized versions, they were modified by Ferrari to be road worthy for the street and for a particular client base. That doesnít make them less of an amazing landmark car, and after all, they would have easily been race worthy with a few changes and gone racing had the audience who purchased them been of a different sort.
True the 599 GTO was never actually homologized for racing, and its original intent was not to go racing like the 288ís was, but since it was derived from the 599 XX program whose cars were basically a test bed and one marque race series for special Ferrari clients, there is still a some Ferrari race blood in its veins. Yes it was not designed to be sold to the exact same ultra exclusive client as the 288, F40, F50, Enzo, and LaFerrari were, but so what? Iím willing to cut Ferrari some slack and accept the moniker, and I assume that many others over time will as well. No it will never reach the valuations of the elite Ferrari specials and will be consigned to the secondary tier 550 Barchetta, 575 SuperAmerica tier special status, but so what? You are obviously a purist which I respect, but Ferrari is no different than Porsche in this respect who market their 911 GT2 and GT3 RSís to the public as thinly disguised race cars which of course they are not. Definitely from a puristís perspective I can understand your point, but that is not always the determining factor in the future valuation or demand for a car.
Btw, Evoís Jethro Bovington makes mention of the purists furor over the use of the name GTO in this Ferrari F12 Berlinetta and 599 GTO Review

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post #19 of 30 Old 10-02-2015, 01:08 PM
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As usual Chris Harris does the most in depth and best overall reviews, in this case for the 599 GTO:
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post #20 of 30 Old 10-02-2015, 11:22 PM
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Whatever.


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