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-   -   612 issue with shifting gears (https://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/modern-v12s-456-550/45562-612-issue-shifting-gears.html)

Izzy025 05-07-2015 05:20 PM

612 issue with shifting gears
 
Hello All

My 05' 612 with 33k miles on it has been giving me some grief. On random occasions when I try to downshift from 5th to 4th gear, it goes to neutral not properly shifting. The reverse will also hold true when trying to upshift from 3rd to 4th, it will go to neutral. After a few attempts it will finally engage into 4th. It's random but has happened enough times to raise concerns.

I'm a ways away from the nearest Ferrari dealership, spoke with Ben at Lake Forest in Chicago area. Initial thoughts that it may be the f1 relay switch. I took the car in for service to my local exotic car shop, the only code they have is that the "T" piece shifter for drive to automatic is broken. I've known that, it still worked but doesn't properly lock. They're suggesting to first replace that with a hefty price tag for the parts. I'm not confined how the shifter affects 4th gear.

They have not come across any other codes, the clutch wear is at 30% so not likely a clutch issue either.

Any thoughts from the Ferrari gurus out there.

champagne612 05-07-2015 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzy025 (Post 626178)
Hello All

My 05' 612 with 33k miles on it has been giving me some grief. On random occasions when I try to downshift from 5th to 4th gear, it goes to neutral not properly shifting. The reverse will also hold true when trying to upshift from 3rd to 4th, it will go to neutral. After a few attempts it will finally engage into 4th. It's random but has happened enough times to raise concerns.

I'm a ways away from the nearest Ferrari dealership, spoke with Ben at Lake Forest in Chicago area. Initial thoughts that it may be the f1 relay switch. I took the car in for service to my local exotic car shop, the only code they have is that the "T" piece shifter for drive to automatic is broken. I've known that, it still worked but doesn't properly lock. They're suggesting to first replace that with a hefty price tag for the parts. I'm not confined how the shifter affects 4th gear.

They have not come across any other codes, the clutch wear is at 30% so not likely a clutch issue either.

Any thoughts from the Ferrari gurus out there.

Is there a Maser dealer close to you?

Should be able to pull the codes off they are very similar.

Either way talk to Sean at LFSC.

tazandjan 05-07-2015 09:16 PM

Very likely the F1 reverse lever has nothing to do with her shifting to neutral. Paul Hill (Hill Engineering) is working on a fix for the Superamerica/612 F1 panel, so I would wait for that. They already have one for the 360/575/F430. One hint, use the paddles to go to 1st and not the lever. Extends the life of the panel and T handle.

Going to neutral is the F1 system's safety valve to prevent you from being stuck in gear in an intersection and unable to move her (How many times have I said that?). This can be caused by a dozen things ranging from a bad sensor or potentiometer to a clutch that is worn out or a duff throw-out bearing or clutch position sensor. Can also be several things that are simple to fix with the right tools, like air in the system or a leaking bleed block. Clutch wear can be checked with a borescope looking at the throw-out bearing pin if your techs know what they are doing.

But your problem is impossible to diagnose on the internet. You need an F1 expert with an SD3 or equivalent to see what is indicated and then diagnose and fix the problem. Hopefully, just a change of F1 fluid and bleeding the system will fix her up, but the expert will be the one to tell you what you need. What tool is your local techs using?

ECSofVirginia 05-08-2015 06:38 AM

I suspect the gearbox actuator is giving you trouble and needs to be replaced. It is a common issue on these older cars and ones with mileage. Now, that is not to say there isn't another item or two that could need attention as well.


A tech that is familiar with the F1 system can comb through the parameters section and locate data points that indicate faulty components with reasonable ease.

Izzy025 05-08-2015 08:05 AM

Thanks Guys, I've forwarded the suggestions and possibilities to the shop, "The Little Speed Shop" in Rochester NY. Lets see, what they come up with.

Truly appreciate the feedback

tazandjan 05-08-2015 08:40 AM

Josh- Have you used GTE Engineering's rebuilt actuators yet? At $2700, a much better deal than a new one.

ECSofVirginia 05-08-2015 09:55 AM

I have not. Unfortunately GTE advertises their services AND pricing on Ebay. There is no margin for a shop in there. I can't afford to compete with Ebay sellers nor can I afford to warranty my time or a rebuilt product under those circumstances. So, I sell and install new factory actuators.

Izzy025 05-08-2015 10:19 AM

Spoke with the tech - only code showing up is that the "T" piece reverse shifter is not functioning. They haven't been able to reproduce the issue of not being able to shift from 5 to 4th.

For me also it's been intermittent. Because of no other codes they want to start with fixing the reverse shifter first.

Read online that the actuator could simply be off center? However from what I read there should be a DTC correlating with the actuator not centering.

However could a clutch sensor failure be more likely the culprit since the makeshift would be more erratic?

Josh- you guys did the Pre-purchase inspection for me 3 years ago, wish I was closer to you guys.

Izzy025 05-08-2015 10:20 AM

Sorry malshifting

tazandjan 05-08-2015 10:51 AM

First thing I would do would be to change the F1 fluid, bleed and run a self-test and see if that fixes her. Better than a $17K actuator.

F1 fluid should be changed every three years, but Ferrari did not figure that out until the 599, when it finally showed up in the maintenance schedule. Just like old coolant causes problems, the same for old F1 fluid.

Josh- Serkan was in Turkey doing F1 actuator rebuilds for Europeans for quite a while with great results before moving to Florida and GTE Engineering. Those who have used his rebuilt actuators have been very positive on them. An actuator is a fairly simple hydraulic system not unlike those used in farm implements. Rebuilding is mainly just having the correct suppy of parts and thoroughly cleaning all the passages. E-Bay is free publicity for him, I guess.

Question on the 575 and 612 actuator: Do you have to remove the actuator to bleed like you do on the 360 and F430 or can it be done in place since there is more room? I bought my techs one of the centering tools for the actuator on my 575M (or a pre-OTO 612) and it works while the actuator is installed, unlike the one for the V8s, so it looked like everything could be done while still in place.

ECSofVirginia 05-08-2015 02:25 PM

Good to know Taz. The turn around time for the rebuild was also always an issue. As a shop, I can't afford to have a car sitting on my lift for 3wks for a service I make no profit on, or need to make a warranty repair on. On that note, we haven't had to buy the full F1 kit for $15-20k in a few years. I've been buying just the actuator alone for $5-6k for a while. At that price, the savings become negligible, compared to down time especially.


And yes, it is necessary to remove the actuator from the gearbox for bleeding. The bleeder screws are on the backside fo the actuator, cradled between it and the gearbox.

Izzy, haven't seen you on the board much in since you got the car, so I trust it's been treating you well. Unfortunately, there are too many variables and possibilities to spit ball useful ideas over the forum. Without seeing parameters and watching values while driving myself, all I can do is give you a couple basic repair ideas based on experience.

tazandjan 05-08-2015 07:15 PM

Josh- Thanks, that does make a difference. Price for the rebuilt actuators is around $2700, with pretty quick turn, but if new ones are $5-6K....

Curses, had hoped for a break on the V12s on fluid change and bleeding. Real world intrudes again.

ECSofVirginia 05-11-2015 06:41 AM

Almost nothing is "easy" on a Ferrari, you know that Taz. The best way around an F-car is always the long way ;)

tazandjan 05-11-2015 09:38 AM

Josh- Yup, do it the hard way, it is easier.

tifosi_ 05-12-2015 07:20 AM

That problem happens from time to time on my 575 as well. It happened once to me when upshifting from 3rd to 4th when I was on the track at Mosport last July, but then didn't repeat, and it happened again on one of my Ferrari Club drives. Its so rare that I just ignore it (as my mechanic suggested because when tested we couldn't repeat it). I Somehow thought it was happening because I was rushing the shift too much, is that possible?
Clyde

ECSofVirginia 05-12-2015 07:37 AM

If you "rush" the shift, the TCU will simply ignore the command. If you find it happens only when you're driving spiritedly and making frequent shifts, I still suspect the actuator is on it's way out, but, you may be having an issue with the accumulator discharging and the pump unable to compensate and maintain pressure.

tifosi_ 05-12-2015 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia (Post 628170)
If you "rush" the shift, the TCU will simply ignore the command. If you find it happens only when you're driving spiritedly and making frequent shifts, I still suspect the actuator is on it's way out, but, you may be having an issue with the accumulator discharging and the pump unable to compensate and maintain pressure.

I will keep this in mind and see if it happens again. Thanks
Clyde

tifosi_ 05-12-2015 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazandjan (Post 626570)
Josh- Have you used GTE Engineering's rebuilt actuators yet? At $2700, a much better deal than a new one.

Is it GTE Engineering from Pompano Beach Florida that you're talking about Terry?
Just wanna keep this info in case I need to replace my actuators later on since I have also been experiencing some shifts going to neutral from time to time.
Clyde

tazandjan 05-12-2015 03:12 PM

Clyde- Yup, that is the shop where Serkan works.

Josh- Have you upgraded any 360s or V12s with the later style F1 pump?

p1turbo 05-12-2015 06:48 PM

my '04 575 has shifting issues going from 2nd to 3rd…would go into N….then 6th…then paddles would allow shifting.

clutch had about 35k miles on it/read at 22% worn

mechanic checked codes (general f1 system malfunction)/f1 system troubleshooted (no leaks/pressure ok etc)

replaced a potentiometer….no problems since…$2700

40k miles on clutch now…:-)…car has 62K


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