the modern V12 market (excl 599/FF/F12) - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 12 Old 04-03-2014, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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the modern V12 market (excl 599/FF/F12)

I didn't want to hijack the other thread - so here's a question and 212's first response

It is a fantastic market for buyers looking for any Ferrari younger than 35 years....but why isn't anyone buying then?

212:

Why is an attractive Ferrari market not entered by the youth (in Europe) ?

Well (in Europe) within the last 20 years the bureaucrats have been able to create oeconomical circumstances in which youth unemployment is 50-60% in some countries and 20-25% average and created an educational system were only a academic title is accepted (even for kindergarten teachers) and even then the unemployment for fresh university finishers is skyrocket high. In oppositon to this, learning a non-academical skill/profession is negated and non-supported by the "Bologna" bureaucrats. So Ferrari buying is not at the forefront of thoughts/imagination of the NOW Young People. It may come again but I partially doubt it. Just my 2 Cents


Good point 212, it depends on what you consider "young". I would not have thought that the modern V12s I refer to would be the vehicle of choice for folks in their 20s. But rather, a key target group would probably be 30+. The economical situation notwithstanding, I'd say the age group that I belong to (say 35-45) is generally doing ok and has disposable income of 50-70k...Those people buy BMW 3 series etc which cost the same and within 5 years lose 50% of what a 550/75 costs.

Take the 911 market for example, prices for the G-Model have been rising steadily - you can't get a good 3.2 for less than 35k EUR, yet the demand seems high. Pay 20k extra and you get a 550/75...a different world. Yet, the latter market appears to soften.

I wonder: has it to do with perception? I mean the perception that Fs are extremely expensive to run (not true, as we know), that they break down all the time (not true, as we know).

It's just a puzzle to me.
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post #2 of 12 Old 04-04-2014, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrismic View Post
I didn't want to hijack the other thread - so here's a question and 212's first response

It is a fantastic market for buyers looking for any Ferrari younger than 35 years....but why isn't anyone buying then?

212:

Why is an attractive Ferrari market not entered by the youth (in Europe) ?

Well (in Europe) within the last 20 years the bureaucrats have been able to create oeconomical circumstances in which youth unemployment is 50-60% in some countries and 20-25% average and created an educational system were only a academic title is accepted (even for kindergarten teachers) and even then the unemployment for fresh university finishers is skyrocket high. In oppositon to this, learning a non-academical skill/profession is negated and non-supported by the "Bologna" bureaucrats. So Ferrari buying is not at the forefront of thoughts/imagination of the NOW Young People. It may come again but I partially doubt it. Just my 2 Cents


Good point 212, it depends on what you consider "young". I would not have thought that the modern V12s I refer to would be the vehicle of choice for folks in their 20s. But rather, a key target group would probably be 30+. The economical situation notwithstanding, I'd say the age group that I belong to (say 35-45) is generally doing ok and has disposable income of 50-70k...Those people buy BMW 3 series etc which cost the same and within 5 years lose 50% of what a 550/75 costs.

Take the 911 market for example, prices for the G-Model have been rising steadily - you can't get a good 3.2 for less than 35k EUR, yet the demand seems high. Pay 20k extra and you get a 550/75...a different world. Yet, the latter market appears to soften.

I wonder: has it to do with perception? I mean the perception that Fs are extremely expensive to run (not true, as we know), that they break down all the time (not true, as we know).

It's just a puzzle to me.


Chris,
within the last 20 years the bureaucrats have been able all the bad things was possible make in the cars ....
Italy is a big represented of this results .... caos, worry, fear, and the people thinks bad when see one owner of Ferrari, Lamborghini or other big brands ....
The masses of people know anything of cars !!! But Ferrari is in their mind connect to the very rich person , perhaps 30 years ago, today is complete different but lot of people ignore it ....
The masses of people have perception that Fs are extremely expensive to run!
Ferrari is the first brand in the world, and also for this when one person see one Ferrari for first thinking "hoooo one Ferrari" and not "wow one F 308, that value 28K euros, less that one audi" .....
Probably will be the same forever, if the perception will go down probably because one down grade of Ferrari brand ...
Plus that a puzzle i think is a philosophy problem ....

Fabio

PRESENT: 575 F1 HGTC ROSSO CORSA 2004' - MB CLS 350 CGI 2007'
PAST: 550 ROSSO CORSA 1998' - MB CLK 240 2002'
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post #3 of 12 Old 04-15-2014, 08:05 AM
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There are 3 main issue it's not a good idea buying this kind of car in Italy (I don't know if it's the same in all Europe):
1. There are a lot of costs: fuel (around 1.75€/liter), repair costs (60€/hours min) and high price for spare parts, taxes for owning a car with high power. If you're not rich, that's not your car. All the market is set about "if you buy a Ferrari you can hold it", so everything is expensive.
2. There are a lot of restrinction about old car (we're a lot of people in a small area, for american standard). Just now all the north part of Italy is studying to close circulation to all EURO3 cars (my 2004 BMW 330XD is a EURO3). Euro 0 cannot go in quite any place in Milan.
3. The last chance is to buy not a old, but a ancient one. Cost will collapse (very low taxes) but you'll need to have all original spare parts, and do quite low mileage for year, maybe only in some occasion.

So, why I should buy a car that not go so fast, will cost a lot (spare parts, fuel, taxes), will not be so useful (by the way, not like a new car surely), will not be allowed to travel on many days or in many places ? I must be enough rich to buy at least 2 car (and pay 2 times taxes).
By the way, owning and running a Ferrari IS expensive (in Italy for sure!): for my 2006 612 Scaglietti I pay something like 4.500€ of ownership tax, 0.30€/km of fuel, 1.200€ for my year check, 1400€ of assurance... 7.000€, half of the pay a young take in a year.

...HOLY CRAP! ... I'm always sad when I look to how much my F costs to me.

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post #4 of 12 Old 05-11-2014, 11:24 PM
 
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FYI, a good looking ultra low miles early 575M with manual transmission has just appeared for sale over here in CH...


FERRARI 575M, Occasion, Essence, 9'800 km, CHF 122'500.- - AutoScout24
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post #5 of 12 Old 05-12-2014, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MogulBoy View Post
FYI, a good looking ultra low miles early 575M with manual transmission has just appeared for sale over here in CH...


FERRARI 575M, Occasion, Essence, 9'800 km, CHF 122'500.- - AutoScout24
If that were RHD and on sale in the UK, you could add 50% to the price and still tell the buyers to form an orderly queue.

Best wishes, John
Ferrari: 550 Maranello S/N 110995, Dino 246 GT S/N 6934
Other: 1990 Bentley Turbo R, 1989 Porsche 911 C2, 2004 Mercedes 500CLK, 2011 Mercedes E350 CDI, 1972 VW T2 Camper, 2014 Fiat 500C, 1963 Jaguar E-type 3.8 FHC, 2015 Maserati Granturismo Sport
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post #6 of 12 Old 05-12-2014, 04:15 AM
 
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I would agree (with the slight caveat that the UK has a 'FHP fixation' on 575Ms that could hold back some of the most unbounded of bids).


This car does raise some interesting questions in my mind though...


Would it be possible (and by that I mean more economically beneficial) to convert a LHD manual 575M to RHD or to convert an F1 car to manual?
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post #7 of 12 Old 05-16-2014, 01:05 AM
 
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Some more UK market fruitiness...

Two lovely cars but could Sir be persudaded to pay an 85% premium for the the manual box?

70k TDF/Sabia 24,767miles Ferrari 575 F1 Maranello For Sale | Kent, South East, Kent | Furlonger Specialist Cars

130k Rosso Corsa/Nero 29,000miles (suspiciously round and sub-30k) Ferrari 575 Manual For Sale | Kent, South East, Kent | Furlonger Specialist Cars
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post #8 of 12 Old 05-16-2014, 07:38 AM
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Three pedal 575Ms are definitely in 599 territory in the UK. The write-up in Evo probably did not hurt.

Taz
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post #9 of 12 Old 05-16-2014, 07:15 PM
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In line with the OP, one factor is culture mentality. Here in Japan, V12s such as F and MB cars are not popular for all the stated reasons, no matter how wonderful the cars may be. Resale values for 550 et al are soft at best.

Another note regarding gas prices. Average prices are +175yen/liter, of which roughly half is tax. Then at the pump, they double tax by charging another 8% for consumption tax. Tax on tax.

w/ smiles
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post #10 of 12 Old 05-17-2014, 12:27 AM
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Maybe you should buy a few, Jimmy, and export them to the UK, as we both drive on the left. How do they compare with these current / recent UK offerings:

575 manual, 29,000 miles for 130K:
Used 2003 Ferrari 575 for sale in Kent | Pistonheads

575 F1, 22,500 miles with HGTC package for 115K:
Used 2004 Ferrari 575 for sale in Devon | Pistonheads

550, 7,500 miles, for 95K (now sold):

Used 1997 Ferrari 550 for sale in Surrey | Pistonheads

In fact, here is the current list of Maranellos on offer on PH classifieds:
Used Cars for sale with PistonHeads

Almost no 550s available except two high milers (well, by Ferraris standards anyway!) at just under 50K and a left-hooker at 70K; plus a couple of 575s in the 60Ks

Best wishes, John
Ferrari: 550 Maranello S/N 110995, Dino 246 GT S/N 6934
Other: 1990 Bentley Turbo R, 1989 Porsche 911 C2, 2004 Mercedes 500CLK, 2011 Mercedes E350 CDI, 1972 VW T2 Camper, 2014 Fiat 500C, 1963 Jaguar E-type 3.8 FHC, 2015 Maserati Granturismo Sport
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post #11 of 12 Old 05-17-2014, 12:46 AM
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John, those examples are quite high in prices (also due to the exchange rate, meaning BP is expensive).

Over here, in one popular Yahoo site, there's about half a dozen 575s for sale in the price ranges of high 5million yens up to high 9million !

There are more 550 available and at lower ranges.

Most of them have only couple thousand km to under 10,000 km most.

People simply do not hit tarmacs often enough.

Must say the UK market is either hot and/or overpriced.

w/ smiles
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post #12 of 12 Old 05-17-2014, 05:33 AM
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Jimmy, the very idea of being able to buy a RHD 550 / 575 with less than 10K miles on the clock for 5m. yen (less than 30K!) makes me want to cry

Best wishes, John
Ferrari: 550 Maranello S/N 110995, Dino 246 GT S/N 6934
Other: 1990 Bentley Turbo R, 1989 Porsche 911 C2, 2004 Mercedes 500CLK, 2011 Mercedes E350 CDI, 1972 VW T2 Camper, 2014 Fiat 500C, 1963 Jaguar E-type 3.8 FHC, 2015 Maserati Granturismo Sport
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