Group Buy for ARP Head Stud Kit? - Ferrari Life
View Poll Results: Are you interested in a Group Buy for an ARP head stud kit for the 456/550/575/612?
Yes, definitely interested 4 50.00%
Possibly interested, but need more technical/commercial information 3 37.50%
No, not interested at all 0 0%
What are head studs? 1 12.50%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 34 Old 11-01-2013, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Group Buy for ARP Head Stud Kit?

I'm running a poll to see if there's any interest in a Group Buy for an ARP head stud kit for the late model V12's (456/550/575/612).

With the valve guide issues that affect the 456's and 550's, and require the heads to come off, it would be a good opportunity to replace the Ferrari studs with higher quality ARP studs, and upgrade the 6 point nuts to ARP's 12 point style.

Lots more info to follow if there's interest. Please participate in the poll.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #2 of 34 Old 11-01-2013, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
I'm running a poll to see if there's any interest in a Group Buy for an ARP head stud kit for the late model V12's (456/550/575/612).

With the valve guide issues that affect the 456's and 550's, and require the heads to come off, it would be a good opportunity to replace the Ferrari studs with higher quality ARP studs, and upgrade the 6 point nuts to ARP's 12 point style.

Lots more info to follow if there's interest. Please participate in the poll.

Their 12 point nuts are generally a shallow head and can be a real challenge with the head nut adaptor needed on the Ferrari motor. I found them to be a PIA even on the Chevy SP2 heads.
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post #3 of 34 Old 11-01-2013, 05:58 PM Thread Starter
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Their 12 point nuts are generally a shallow head and can be a real challenge with the head nut adaptor needed on the Ferrari motor. I found them to be a PIA even on the Chevy SP2 heads.
Agreed, but don't you find the same problem with the OEM Ferrari nuts? That was certainly one of the aggravations I had with them.

I had noticed the shallow heads on ARP's nuts on motors I've built previously so I asked if they had any options, and they provided me a list of all the variations they manufacture. I've found several that have "deeper" heads that I think will work well on our motors.

Here's a pic of the standard 6 point Ferrari nut on the left, ARP's standard 12 point nut in the middle, and one of ARP's deeper ones on the right. For information, the hex on the Ferrari nut is 7mm deep, the bihex on the standard ARP nut is 6.8mm, and the bihex on the deep ARP nut is 8.25mm. The deep ARP nut is also about 2mm taller than the Ferrari nut, so that may make a difference when fitting into those tight recesses of the heads. I have 6 different variants here that I'll be trying, once I get my heads back.
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'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #4 of 34 Old 11-02-2013, 02:40 AM
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John,

Shallow or deep nut issues aside for the moment, the question then becomes "what about the tool?" The leverage arm will then need to be redesigned to fit the SAE-flanged nut, unless of course there's a standard equivalent of 15mm.
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post #5 of 34 Old 11-02-2013, 02:54 AM Thread Starter
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David, good point, but I felt our resident toolmaker here would probably come up with a modified tool for the different heads on the nuts

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #6 of 34 Old 11-02-2013, 03:29 AM
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I figured I was "involved" somehow on this project...No worries, I did discuss this with the machinist when we last met. Everything is doable.

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post #7 of 34 Old 11-02-2013, 05:54 AM
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Very nice initiative :-)
But I am a European user, so for me, no interest in imperial socket.

But i support your approach (and have order a few super expensive 6 points original M11 ferrari nuts for my guide valve operation. only to replace some damaged ones, not a full set....
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post #8 of 34 Old 11-05-2013, 09:51 AM Thread Starter
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Some have indicated by email they'd like more information, so here we go:

I’ve been working with ARP’s Special Products Division and have arranged with them to manufacture a special stud/nut/washer set for our F133 engine family (456/550/575/612 cars).

They have agreed to do this as a one off project. There will not be an ARP P/N issued for these, nor will they stock them in the future, since it’s such a small niche market. So Andrew kindly agreed to allow a group buy to run on Ferrari Life for these. Here are some technical details:

Once ARP indicated they were willing to do this, I sent samples of the OEM Ferrari head studs to them for measurement & testing and they were found to be approximately Grade 8 spec (150ksi) and their hardness tested to a Rockwell C scale of 34-35.

ARP’s engineers then designed a replacement stud from their standard 8740 chrome moly steel, which has a tensile strength of 180ksi, and an Rc hardness of 39-43. The studs will have the correct M12 block thread on the bottom, but will have a 7/16” x 20 thread on top in lieu of the M11 Ferrari thread.

ARP’s 7/16” x 20, 12 point flanged nuts and washers are readily available and inexpensive (~$2.50 to $3.50) vs the OEM M11 nuts which cost ~$35 each and can only be sourced from Ferrari.

In summary, these sets will have the following advantages over the Ferrari fasteners:
• Well known ARP quality, which exceeds the OEM fasteners
• Stronger than OEM
• 12 point flanged nuts instead of 6 point OEM nuts
• Fasteners should be reusable **

** These will not be TTY studs like the OEM's. ARP prefer a straight torque method for tightening their fasteners, in conjunction with using their Ultra Torque lubricant. They feel this method provides a more consistent clamping force than the angle torque method used with TTY studs. They have not yet provided the recommended torque settings, but estimate it will be approximately 80% of the yield strength of the fastener, so ARP feel they should be reusable at least once vs the OEM TTY fasteners which are not recommended to be reused.

The complete ARP sets will include 28 studs, 28 flat washers, and 28 nuts. For sake of comparison, a comparable set of Ferrari studs, washers & nuts will cost $1265 + shipping, and will not be as high quality as the ARP set. Here's the commercial information:

Group Buy Pricing for Sets of Studs/Nuts/Washers:
Based on 5 Sets: $850 per set
Based on 10 Sets: $600 per set
Based on 20 Sets: $550 per set

Shipping will be extra and will probably be a bit higher than customary, as I'm anticipating ARP will want to make only one shipment (to me) and I'll then need to break it up into sets, repackage and reship.

Delivery will be approximately 12-13 weeks ARO.

As the nuts & washers are ARP stock items, and the only "special" items here are the studs, some may wish to just purchase a set of the studs, and buy the nuts & washers at a later date, or from a different source. So here is the same pricing as above, but for sets of 28 studs only:

Group Buy Pricing for Sets of Studs Only:
Based on 5 Sets: $715 per set
Based on 10 Sets: $450 per set
Based on 20 Sets: $400 per set

We'll need to buy at least 5 sets to make this go. Who's in?

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #9 of 34 Old 11-08-2013, 05:19 AM Thread Starter
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Some folks have emailed me and are asking for clarification on the pricing for this stud kit, citing that Summit and others sell ARP head stud kits for their SBC, SBF, etc. for less than $200, so why are these so expensive?

Comparing this stud set to what ARP manufacture for the US domestic engines is an apples to oranges comparison. ARP’s machines are always set up to turn out domestic stud sets, and their production runs are in the thousands.

The material cost for these studs is a very small part of the overall cost. The largest costs for these Ferrari studs are the engineering, and machine setup, and those are fixed, which is why the price on these studs drops so much with the larger quantities that we’d buy.

With these Ferrari studs, ARP will have to stop their normal production runs, and reset their machines to make our run, which “might” hit a hundred studs, then they’re done. So all that engineering & setup has to be spread out across 100 pieces, not thousands like they do with the Chevy & Ford studs.

I saw graphic evidence of this yesterday when I was designing this very simple 2 hole flange with an o-ring groove in eMachineshop, then I priced it out. For a single piece, the price was $165. For two pieces, the unit price dropped to $100. For five pieces the price was $40, and it kept dropping. By the time I hit 10 pieces, the unit price was down to $20. Incredible but true.



So please don’t compare these stud set prices to Summit’s prices for Camaros and Mustangs – if you want to compare them to something relevant, compare them to the Ferrari stud prices.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #10 of 34 Old 11-08-2013, 08:14 AM
 
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I'm in; for studs only, if we get to ten orders.
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post #11 of 34 Old 11-08-2013, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Red!

Obviously I'm in for the studs/nuts/washers at any level.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #12 of 34 Old 11-11-2013, 04:02 PM
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I think disposing of the TTY design is a good idea. The industry has had nothing but trouble since some Whiz Kid came up with that dumb idea. The taller nuts are better but as you say fit may be an issue but I still have never found a 12 point nut to not be problematic when using a torque adaptor.

My objection is based on my experience in the business and many cases of encountering a car repaired with custom unknown products. If one of these cars came to me some years from now with heads attached in a manner I or any recognized Ferrari tool supplier was not equipped to deal with your bill just went to the moon. Someone will pay for every minute I spend resolving the problem and there is rarely any remorse in the process. Then there is the issue that I have seen 1000 times when a US thread fastener is used on a metric car. Someone, probably the very next guy to touch it will attempt to install a metric nut on your cool studs and wreck them. Just in general not a good plan in my opinion.

I routinely use ARP fasteners but have them made to the Ferrari pattern to avoid those future headaches for my clients. It is not as if we are curing a problem by throwing the factory design out the window.

Last edited by Brian; 11-11-2013 at 04:15 PM.
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post #13 of 34 Old 11-11-2013, 04:17 PM
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John,

I'm 100% with Brian on this one. If a solution could be found to keep the dimensional aspects of the 15mm nuts, even if they were 12-points, I'm on board. In my opinion,and to Brain's point, being able to use the current tooling available (either OEM or Hill) is a huge deal...Although I think the solution you propose is great one, past experiences with "science projects" has not been very enjoyable as some customers just don't seem to get that time wasted on the "out of the ordinary" is still billable time.

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post #14 of 34 Old 11-11-2013, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
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I agree with you both, however ARP were adamant that they would not put an M11 thread on the top of the studs.

But Brian, if you say you've had them do it already, let me go back to my contact one more time and see if they'll reconsider. It may be simply a miscommunication because they think I "have" to have a complete setup (studs, nuts, washers), when in reality, we could get by with the studs.

And BTW, I've located a European shop who will make the M11 nuts in the 12 point bihex configuration for something less than a king's ransom

Stand by.....

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #15 of 34 Old 11-12-2013, 07:40 AM
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I agree with you both, however ARP were adamant that they would not put an M11 thread on the top of the studs.


That's funny. They've done it a bunch of times just for me, not to mention all the other shops that have been doing business with them for years too.

I'll send you a couple of samples to refresh their memory if you like.
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post #16 of 34 Old 11-12-2013, 11:52 AM Thread Starter
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That's funny. They've done it a bunch of times just for me, not to mention all the other shops that have been doing business with them for years too.

I'll send you a couple of samples to refresh their memory if you like.
Thanks Brian, I don't know if samples will be necessary, but I did use your name when pleading my case. Waiting on a reply.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #17 of 34 Old 11-12-2013, 12:55 PM
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Thanks Brian, I don't know if samples will be necessary, but I did use your name when pleading my case. Waiting on a reply.

Don't mind you using my name but all my orders were under Ferrari Los Gatos or Lesco Engineering.

They probably never heard my name.
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post #18 of 34 Old 11-12-2013, 05:02 PM
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I would be furious if a car showed up in my shop with mismatched hardware, unless I knew exactly who to call and raise my voice to about it . I spend enough money on custom tools, I'd like to be able to use one more than a couple times. I too am for maintaining the metric fitment.

I'm also curious as to whether or not there will be an issue getting the tool on and off the nut if the height is increased 2mm. Sometimes that last 2mm was all you needed.

I would want to see you set a head on and run the nut on and off in each position before plunking down some dough.


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post #19 of 34 Old 11-17-2013, 08:52 PM
 
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I'm still in, for studs only at the ten sets level, whether the top threads are M11 or 7/16-20
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post #20 of 34 Old 11-18-2013, 02:26 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Red.

ARP were making encouraging noises last week about being able to do the M11 threads on the studs only, depending on the availability of the tooling. They were silent about doing the nuts, and I suspect they'll decline to do them, but we've always got the Ferrari nuts to fall back on and the one European supplier (who I've been pursuing again, and who are going to send me a sample of their work this week.)

My contact at ARP was checking on the availability of the tooling and was supposed to get back with me, but was out when I tried contacting him on Friday. Will try again today

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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