2001 360 Spider - Too Old? - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 33 Old 07-11-2012, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
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2001 360 Spider - Too Old?

Hey Fellas,

I'm considering expanding my search from the MY 2004 cars to earlier models. I've found a couple of 2001 Red F1 Spiders which seem to be well loved. I know there are some issues which I'd have to deal with if I went back that far, and want to know if the reduced price is worth it.

1. I believe there was an update from a 30A fuse to a 50A fuse for the transmission pump in the later years, correct?
2. Was the F1 transmission "less smooth" in the 2001 model year than the 2004? Or, are they equal from a hardware & software perspective?
3. I know the keys to these cars are HISTORY and CONDITION. Provided those two tests are "passed," is there any general diapproval for the 2001 MY versus the 2004 MY? The 2004 cars I'm seeing have like 4+ owners, which concerns me. The older cars seem to have fewer owners, go figure.

And yes, I'll do a 3rd party PPI on whatever car I'm serious about, regardless of age. I basically want to know from this group the disadvantages (if any) of buying a 2001 over a 2004. Lower resale is probably one disadvantage. Hopefully, when I go to turn this car over in 4-5 years, the difference would be nominal, but I can't be sure about that.

If the answer is "it depends on the car," then I have already figured that one out! My leasing agent says the car has to be able to stand on its own, and if you put a 2001 side by side with a 2004, and the 2001 has a better history and condition, then the 2001 wins regardless of its additional age. What I'm hoping for from you guys is a little bit more detailed technical analysis of the choices.

Thoughts? Thanks!

Raj

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post #2 of 33 Old 07-11-2012, 04:27 PM
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Get the one you like.

The difference in a 8 yr old and a 12 yr old is how it was cared for more than age.

Anything after 1 or 2 owners doesn't really matter.

At then end of the day - it's what you are comfortable with.
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post #3 of 33 Old 07-11-2012, 06:14 PM
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Rajeev- 50 amp fuse went in in late CY 03. Early CS and 575M cars still had the 30 amp fuse. Aftermarket upgrades possible. Upgrades to the F1 ECU/TCU were made at Assembly Numbers 47115 and 47380. Earlier cars can be upgraded or have a Formula Dynamics package added.

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post #4 of 33 Old 07-11-2012, 06:52 PM
 
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Raj,

Don't worry so much. Find the car you like make sure of the service records, get a PPI no matter what, and enjoy the car. Try for 03 and up if your budget allows. These cars aren't an investment and you may have one or two big repair bills but I still think for resale the newer the better, the less the mileage the better, and the less the number of owners the better.

Best of luck
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post #5 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 04:27 AM Thread Starter
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Doug:
What do you mean when you say "anything after 1 or 2 owners doesn't really matter"???

Terry:
Thanks for the tech info. I will ask the current owner about the fuse upgrade and about the F1 ECU/TCU upgrade.

Batman430:
I agree with what you have said, and was planning on all that stuff anyway. I'd like to get one of the later models, but it seems that in my budget they might have questionable histories (I am very much trying to keep this under $90k). I'm not sure. It will take a PPI to know for certain, and even then, the PPI folks don't usually guarantee being able to tell me if it has had any body or paint work. As far as resale goes, I think you're probably right, but the question is whether the principal+return earned on the money saved at purchase outweighs the "estimated" present value of the added resale dollars. It's a lot of speculation, and I have to sit down with some reasonable assumptions and do the calculations. As far as # of owners, since these are "exotics," I've read that they tend to change hands more than non-exotic cars. That said, MOST of the cars I'm seeing online have had 3-4 owners. There are a few exceptions, but the average is like I've said. I'm trying not to let that bother me.

Last night, I decided that I don't care about the model year anymore with the caveat that it has to have the tech upgrades that Terry described. If not, I have to factor that reduction into my offering price to get the upgrades done myself. In the end, I'm buying THE CAR, not the model year. Heck, I just want a Red / Tan 360 Spider F1 now, basically. I do still care about mileage, history, and condition - obviously.

Thanks, and keep it coming!
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post #6 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDriveM5 View Post
Doug:
What do you mean when you say "anything after 1 or 2 owners doesn't really matter"???

Thanks, and keep it coming!
IMO there is value in a one or two owner car - knowing all the history will tell how and by whom the car was cared for.

When I bought my 16M I was told it was a two owner car - which it was.

Upon warranty claims - FNA stated it was a 5 owner car and one of the warranty claims was negated due to multiple ownership. I did an internet search and showed pictures of the car since day one displaying the defect. The rear bumper was out of align by 11/2 inches and all the prior "owner" pictures displayed the flaw.

FNA counted the original dealer the second dealer along with me in the ownership.

Best of luck on your search - the more questions you ask along the way IMO helps you make the right decision for yourself.
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post #7 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 05:57 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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IMO there is value in a one or two owner car - knowing all the history will tell how and by whom the car was cared for.

When I bought my 16M I was told it was a two owner car - which it was.

Upon warranty claims - FNA stated it was a 5 owner car and one of the warranty claims was negated due to multiple ownership. I did an internet search and showed pictures of the car since day one displaying the defect. The rear bumper was out of align by 11/2 inches and all the prior "owner" pictures displayed the flaw.

FNA counted the original dealer the second dealer along with me in the ownership.

Best of luck on your search - the more questions you ask along the way IMO helps you make the right decision for yourself.

Thanks Doug, and wow, what a story! It seems absurd to me how the original and second dealers were counted as "owners." Though I guess it depends on how the term "owner" is defined, right?

I've been e-mailing the seller of the 2001 360 Spider F1 I'm looking at and he has been extremely responsive. I'm specifically asking for Terry's help on this one.

With regard to the F1 system, I asked him about the 30A-50A Fuse Upgrade and the ECU/TCU upgrade, and he told me first that he had no record of these upgrades. Then, he wrote me another email stating this: "There is a record of the replacement of the F1 power unit, or control unit. It cost $5,800."
I do not know the date, but that would be easy enough to ask. Can anyone here speculate as to the details of this upgrade? Terry, is it the ECU/TCU upgrade we're looking for? It seems it might be from the "control unit" language, and $5,800 is a pretty penny. Let me know your thoughts. Also, the assembly number is 43793.

Thanks boys.
Raj
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post #8 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 08:45 AM
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Raj- The power unit is the hydraulic controls for the F1 system and has nothing to do with the F1 ECU/TCU. That is not an upgrade and likely there was a problem with the old one. Number 1 in the parts diagram from Ricambi below.

95% of owners do not upgrade the F1 relay and some just change it regularly, which works fine. I replaced my -X203 relay with a -X266 relay, which has upgraded heat capacity points. The 50 amp relays do not fit the 30 amp wiring harness connector, so you cannot make a direct swap.

Same for the F1 ECU/TCU. Only a few upgrade them, most do not. Trying to decrease your price for something most owners do not do will just chap off the seller. If you want to upgrade, it is your issue, not his. The upgraded relay only costs ~$50 and 15 minutes of work. For the F1 ECU/TCU, the Formula Dynamics package is $2K plus installation and a newer ECU/TCU is ~$4K plus some SD2 time. Both work on early or late cars.
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post #9 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 10:37 AM
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Doug
I have looked at a lot of cars and the carfax showed more owners than the sellers? I then looked closely and as you suggested, not only FNA counts the dealers, but it seems that carfax does also? Additionally I thinkt that carfax counts a change in title as a new owner, because a car I looked at had this issue with the tittle switch from states. Bizarre!

Scott
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post #10 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
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Terry,
Thanks for the thorough and useful information. It has given me quite a lot to think about!
I checked out the Formula Dynamics "F-1 Enhancement Module" for the 360. $1,995 parts and there is an install shop at Maserati of Cincinnati, about 45 mintes from my home base - I bet they could do the fuse/relay upgrade if I paid them to do it. Probably owe them a phone call. Am I to understand that this is ALL I'll need to provide the desired updates to the F-1 gearbox? Here's a silly question: Were HID/Xenon headlamps standard equipment on the 2001 360 Spider F1?

Sorry if my questions sound dumb.
Thanks again.

EDIT: Maserati of Cincinnati has installed transmission enhancements for Porsche and Maserati, but not for Ferrari. However, the service man said they can do it, but that he'd have to price the installation by the hour, which I can understand. He said to expect about $2,500 with parts and labor to install. NOT BAD, if that will eliminate most of the early F-1 gearbox concerns. OR, do I still need to think about the newer ECU/TCU and the SD2 time? I'm trying to figure out if I need one or both. Thoughts??

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post #11 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotts View Post
Doug
I have looked at a lot of cars and the carfax showed more owners than the sellers? I then looked closely and as you suggested, not only FNA counts the dealers, but it seems that carfax does also? Additionally I thinkt that carfax counts a change in title as a new owner, because a car I looked at had this issue with the tittle switch from states. Bizarre!

Scott
I never knew it either - they even added the Ferrari Dealership where I purchased the 16M as an owner which really threw me for a loop.

Not to detract further - but if you buy a car in certain states like California the dealer must ship the car to the buyers address or collect CA tax which is a lot higher than where I live.

So beware that driving a car home from another state is an option but comes with a heavy price.

Scott what are you in search of?
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post #12 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 02:08 PM
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I was looking at Brian's buyer's guide on Forza magazine. He stated:

"Cars with VINs below 124875 left the factory with a poor version of the F1 transmission software. Any transmission control unit with a part number of 189542 or higher can be upgraded."

So I thought only TCU with 189542 or higher can be upgraded. After reading what Terry says here, it seems all units are upgradable. Am I missing something?
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post #13 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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The one I'm looking at ends in 126XXX so I guess that's good. Still not sure if the car should have a TCU upgrade AND Formula Dynamics Enhancement module, either, or both.
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post #14 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 05:35 PM
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I'm looking at one with 121 xxx. Terry, can I upgrade it either way?
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post #15 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 08:27 PM
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As far as I know, all the 360s can be upgraded to the latest 360 TCU, but the best idea would be to call Brian and ask him. Here is the parts catalog reference:

Ferrari Parts : 189542 : 189542 ECU F1 GEARBOX

Early 360 TCUs did not have the ability to hand enter a PIS value, and the later versions did. There may be a squirrel in there us amateurs do not understand on the early cars that Brian may be able to explain. He also said you could upgrade the 30 amp relay to 50 amps, but that cannot be done without a wiring harness change, which Brian knew but did not expound upon in his article.

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post #16 of 33 Old 07-12-2012, 10:06 PM
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I'll give Brian a call to find out. Sorry to hijack the thread.

Btw, Raj, what's the assembly number the car you are looking at?

From Brian:
Early Spiders have no access to engine-compartment subframe attachment bolts, and so require more labor for many types of routine service. The top was redesigned at assembly #41464 to remedy the problem.
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post #17 of 33 Old 07-13-2012, 02:37 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EliseRR View Post
I'll give Brian a call to find out. Sorry to hijack the thread.

Btw, Raj, what's the assembly number the car you are looking at?

From Brian:
Early Spiders have no access to engine-compartment subframe attachment bolts, and so require more labor for many types of routine service. The top was redesigned at assembly #41464 to remedy the problem.
43793. Can anyone answer my earlier question about needing a TCU upgrade, or getting the Formula Dynamics F1 Enhancement module? Either? Both?
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post #18 of 33 Old 07-13-2012, 09:53 AM
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Rajeev- We already answered that question. If you want the latest in shifting smoothness and clutch life, there were updates at Assembly Number 47115 and 47380. Why not drive the car first and see how you like it before planning changes?

If you do both upgrades, you are out ~$7K. I would just do one and the FD upgrade is the cheapest and reversible. No SD2 required, either.

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post #19 of 33 Old 07-13-2012, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
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Rajeev- We already answered that question. If you want the latest in shifting smoothness and clutch life, there were updates at Assembly Number 47115 and 47380. Why not drive the car first and see how you like it before planning changes?

If you do both upgrades, you are out ~$7K. I would just do one and the FD upgrade is the cheapest and reversible. No SD2 required, either.
Thanks, and sorry if I missed the reply. It's getting a little bit confusing.
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post #20 of 33 Old 08-11-2012, 11:15 AM
 
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Hey Raj - IMHO I don't think it's too old. I'm waiting until winter to try and find a great deal on a 430. I too drive an M5
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