275 GTS or 330 GTS - Page 2 - Ferrari Life
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post #21 of 51 Old 05-23-2012, 07:43 PM
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Gus- The NART 275 GTB/4 is in another whole league of price and scarcity. Only 9-10 built and well over $1M if one comes up for sale. Good luck on that one.

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post #22 of 51 Old 05-23-2012, 10:01 PM
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Gus- The NART 275 GTB/4 is in another whole league of price and scarcity. Only 9-10 built and well over $1M if one comes up for sale. Good luck on that one.
Taz and Gus, you will not be able to buy one of those for less than $5 million. Serial number 09437 sold for just under $4 million already in 2005, when a 275GTS would go for $200k or less. 16 months ago, #10917 was reviewed in this magazine:

CLASSIC & SPORTS CAR JAN 2011 - LAMBO COUNTACH - FERRARI - VOLVO P1800 - JENSON | eBay

The owner then valued the car at $7 million. He probably values it at $8m today.


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post #23 of 51 Old 05-23-2012, 10:29 PM
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Gus - great write up.

One thing to keep in mind is that these cars vary greatly from individual example to the next. Even very good looking cars can drive like rubbish, or the other way around. I cannot stress this enough - there are VERY few good cars out there. VERY few. There are a lot that have been expertly restored, but never driven and as a consequence they are still pretty bad to drive. If they have had a complete restoration in the past 2 years, but less than 1000 miles driven, then they still need more miles to iron out the kinks. Miles are the key - they need more, not less. However, if they are like that they cost (relatively) little to get where they need to be. But most that I see have had a little work but not enough. One 275GTS I know is owned by an Italian gentleman who has just had the exterior restored. The car looks fabulous now. But he doesn't want to spend the money on the mechanical side of things so she will still need a large amount to become a good car.

So please keep an open mind and try not to think of your experience as having driven all 275GTS's or 330GTS's out there. I promise you will be quite surprised the next time you drive another one, it will feel quite different.

In your position, I would also try out some of the closed versions, even if you're not interested in buying. Getting experience behind the wheel is very important to get a better feel for the mechanicals and it's easier to find the closed ones. Even though I came from driving a 1974 Boxer, also with heavy clutch and carbs, it took me some time (I would say around 2,000 kms) to get properly settled and bonding with the 8 year older GTC. It will also be helpful to place the open cars in terms of scuttle shake and flex (nothing wrong with it, just part of the experience with open topped cars from the '60ies, but it does influence the handling and driving the closed one will give you a perspective on how the GTS relates to contemporary sisters). The offer to drive my 330GTC still stands, I don't know a Colombo engine that's running sweeter than mine is at the moment (he said, a very happy man). You can also see how I drive her - I found it extremely helpful when I was new at this, to see someone like 212export drive my car, or sitting next to Vitalone when he drove her. Both have a lot of experience driving '60ies Ferraris and they feel at home in my car. People that are really in tune with the car can teach you a lot.

I would advise you, when you go looking at a car, to take someone with you that has experience with vintage Ferraris. I really only feel qualified NOW, after 3 years of owning the GTC, to go and buy a vintage Ferrari. I was lucky - my car was a great buy. But even though I bought a prime specimen, whose 20+ year owner spared no expense, the car is now running much better than she was when I bought her. It is a tricky, but extremely rewarding, hobby.

Oh - and I almost forgot my golden tip.

NEVER buy a car like that without putting it on a bridge. The underside tells all the stories: paint job, maintenance, attention to detail, originality. If it looks good underneath, the rest will be fine.

I hope any of this is helpful - just putting out there what I have learnt in the past 3 years.

Good luck!


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post #24 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 01:19 AM
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Gus, thanks for the great write up!

Onno, in his latest comment said it all. Nothing to add...except try closed cars as well. As you seem to prefer a front engined classic 12', you may also consider to drive a 275 GTB/2 and /4 as well as a well "set uped" Daytona. The cars will "speak" to you, be assured !
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post #25 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 02:05 AM
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Gus, thanks for the great write up!

Onno, in his latest comment said it all. Nothing to add...except try closed cars as well. As you seem to prefer a front engined classic 12', you may also consider to drive a 275 GTB/2 and /4 as well as a well "set uped" Daytona. The cars will "speak" to you, be assured !
More like "demand attenrion". w/ smiles Jimmy
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post #26 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 02:06 AM
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Gus, ...just curious what the price differences between the two. No need to reply if I am out of line to ask such crude question.

w/ smiles
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post #27 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 03:47 AM Thread Starter
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Gus- The NART 275 GTB/4 is in another whole league of price and scarcity. Only 9-10 built and well over $1M if one comes up for sale. Good luck on that one.
Thank you, Terry & Onno... I can forget searching for an example then. I thought after seeing the 275 GTB/4 spyder conversion, the original NART would not be substantially much more, but 10x more?... how much more wrong could I be?


Onno, thank you very much for the offer to drive your GTC. I will take it up when I visit my mum in Amsterdam next time. I may decide to continue to see Rolf and try his D as well, that sounds like a good plan!


Barry/Jimmy, here is the link to the cars I tested:

Ferrari 275 GTS - ex Jayne Mansfield and Eric Clapton*-*For Sale At Talacrest

Ferrari 330 GTS*-*For Sale At Talacrest

The two were priced very similarly (both between 700-800K). There is another cheaper 330 that I am looking at right now, but needs a lot of work. The recent RM auction in Monaco was done at 850K (not sure incl. or excl. buyers premium),

With that much money required for a car like this, it crossed my mind sometimes to try the Enzo, as they are coming in flux right now...But I am really looking to add the classic lines into my garage (at least one!), so Enzo can wait...

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post #28 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 03:53 AM Thread Starter
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Gus, thanks for the great write up!

Onno, in his latest comment said it all. Nothing to add...except try closed cars as well. As you seem to prefer a front engined classic 12', you may also consider to drive a 275 GTB/2 and /4 as well as a well "set uped" Daytona. The cars will "speak" to you, be assured !
Rolf, thank you very much for the offer to try D at some point, also the introduction to M, which is greatly appreciated. I will try to plan a trip to Amsterdam and then to Switzerland to see you drive the beautiful D around the lakes.

DK Eng has one red daytona that is in reasonably good condition as well, worth testing at some point.

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post #29 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 03:55 AM Thread Starter
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PS. I love your write up on the Enzo drive the other day, Rolf!

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post #30 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 05:09 AM
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Thanks Gus, you're very welcome. Unbelievable....700-800' Pund sterling for a 275 GTS. When I attended Bonhams Gstaad December auctions in the early '00's, the 275 GTS' have been sold for around 100' . ...... I'm smelling a bubble here.....(but its maybe just be cause I smell wrongly with a cold thru the nose)

.....
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post #31 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 05:57 AM
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Unbelievable....700-800' Pund sterling for a 275 GTS.
I have to agree. 3 years ago, a 330GTS would have gone for about 50% more than a 275GTS. The 275GTS would have been around 300 - 350k GBP. For prices to have doubled in 3 years is just unbelievable. To be frank - personally I do not believe that is where the market is. I think the celebrity history has a lot to do with it.


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post #32 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 05:57 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Gus, you're very welcome. Unbelievable....700-800' Pund sterling for a 275 GTS. When I attended Bonhams Gstaad December auctions in the early '00's, the 275 GTS' have been sold for around 100' . ...... I'm smelling a bubble here.....(but its maybe just be cause I smell wrongly with a cold thru the nose)

.....
Rolf,
The price gap is really wide... German seller of a 275 GTS that was first delivered to Dupont family is asking for 650k (about 520k)...
Besides the one over 700k sold by Talacrest was just at premium because of Jayne Mansfield and Eric Clapton ownership previously.... Which I couldn't care less...

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post #33 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 06:14 AM
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Rolf,
The price gap is really wide... German seller of a 275 GTS that was first delivered to Dupont family is asking for 650k (about 520k)...
Besides the one over 700k sold by Talacrest was just at premium because of Jayne Mansfield and Eric Clapton ownership previously.... Which I couldn't care less...

Agree, but even Euro 650 is lofty ...(at least for me). This will buy a good 288 GTO as a comparison. But anyway this may be a hint to seriously think about how important the "convertible" question becomes. Or differently said, that money would buy app. a Daytona, a 365 BB AND a 246 GTS ......? Or a cheaper F40 AND a Daytona.......? Strange isn't it ?
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post #34 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 06:37 AM
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It is crazy. I am a bit scared to think what may happen this coming fall toward the end of the year. Jimmy
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post #35 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 06:38 AM
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a Daytona, a 365 BB AND a 246 GTS ......?
Yeah baby, yeah!


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Or a cheaper F40 AND a Daytona.......?
Yeah baby. Yeah yeah yeah!!

On prices - you have to be quick witted at the moment. There are all sorts of things happening with the market. I know a Daytona, fresh from perfect restoration (really top quality), that would have sold for €350k+, if it had been for sale last year. The American owner has just moved to Italy, and has now realised that having assets like that is not a good thing. He needs to get rid of the car, and suddenly the car could be snapped up for €270, maybe €250k, even though the market is really much higher. Too bad my money was already spent on a 458....

Things like that are happening a lot in Italy. There are of course many problem cars that can give you issues when trying to get them out of the country, but there is no denying that there will be cars available at a price that will be an influence on the prices in Europe in general.

I also think that some of the prices that are being asked are owners that are just extrapolating the exponential curve. It does not mean that they can get the prices they want. Considering the Euro zone problems, I would not be surprised if we find out 12 months from now that we were just sitting in the rise before the fall.

I would not buy at the moment. Let summer play out a little bit, and then make a move. Or make a low bid now. The owner may come back to you in a couple of months, at which time you can lower your bid again.

It is wise to be patient. The market is just going up too quickly for my liking.


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post #36 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 08:41 AM
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Yeah baby, yeah!




Yeah baby. Yeah yeah yeah!!

On prices - you have to be quick witted at the moment. There are all sorts of things happening with the market. I know a Daytona, fresh from perfect restoration (really top quality), that would have sold for €350k+, if it had been for sale last year. The American owner has just moved to Italy, and has now realised that having assets like that is not a good thing. He needs to get rid of the car, and suddenly the car could be snapped up for €270, maybe €250k, even though the market is really much higher. Too bad my money was already spent on a 458....

Things like that are happening a lot in Italy. There are of course many problem cars that can give you issues when trying to get them out of the country, but there is no denying that there will be cars available at a price that will be an influence on the prices in Europe in general.

I also think that some of the prices that are being asked are owners that are just extrapolating the exponential curve. It does not mean that they can get the prices they want. Considering the Euro zone problems, I would not be surprised if we find out 12 months from now that we were just sitting in the rise before the fall.

I would not buy at the moment. Let summer play out a little bit, and then make a move. Or make a low bid now. The owner may come back to you in a couple of months, at which time you can lower your bid again.

It is wise to be patient. The market is just going up too quickly for my liking.


Onno
Onno, I agree generally however that YOU are not buying is clear to me....with such a stable already ...!
But if you think in terms of Gus, having a 458 and wanting a classic addition, longer term it may not be of such huge importance if you buy now or in 1 ,2,3 years. You may want a classic NOW. Of course, seeing the price of a Euro 350' car drop to Euro 250' inbetween may not look nice, however if you want to seriously keep it long tern....who cares. Also, at the end, everything calculates down to percentage of net worth, which for some, a variation of Euro 100' may mean a 1-2-3-4% fluctuation, so not the end of the world.

I also agree that certain classic seem tremendeously overpriced, however everything has a reason. IMO, Boxers and Daytonas are still not very expensive and are fantastic and important Ferrari classics, just not convertibles! Just my 2 cents.
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post #37 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 02:21 PM
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If you are willing to expand the scope of the search (but keep it as a soft/targa top mandate), I would also test drive:

246 GTS
365 GTS/4
F50
250 PF Spider
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post #38 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 08:27 PM
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Onno- Right you are and for that much money you could have a 250 LM or five F50s or three or four 333 SPs. Even the 275 GTB/4s are over $1M frequently now.

Taz
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post #39 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 09:08 PM
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I suppose all is relative. As much as I think highly of say Dino, when the market is inflated to the point of 300K and north, it is absurd. Deja vu ? Seems to me the timing for rude awakening is in fall or early part of 2013. So who am I to predict ? I am not even an economist.

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post #40 of 51 Old 05-24-2012, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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Despite the worst world recession (or depression) in the past 3-4 years, there are too much money lying around looking for a home, especially in the new big economies. In addition to the US and European buyers, the Russian, Chinese, Indian and Middle Eastern collectors have been springing up buying all things classics. All private bankers will have classic cars investment, among others, as part of their investment advice to their clients.
Scary thought for us, car lovers, to have to compete with these type of buyers. They don't really want or have the time to enjoy it...

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