Will a PPI include a market value? - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 11:59 AM Thread Starter
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Will a PPI include a market value?

After backing out of the last deal on a 360 after a discussion with the mechanic, I have finally found another one that fits my tastes.

I've been looking for a 360 that isn't completely stock. I'd prefer wheels, tires, exhaust already be done (at minimum) and preferably more stuff. I found one that really fits what I'm looking for.

Every other car that I've looked up, I've been able to find at least SOME history on it by googling the VIN number (ZFFYU51A1Y0122455). But this one hasn't shown up anywhere. The dealer is researching the belt/clutch services now but said the previous owner did all his own work to the car. It has 19k miles on it now. He has upgraded lots of visual items to the car. Some I really like (Carbon door panels, etc) and some I dont (polished airboxes and valve covers).

I am hoping to send the car for its PPI in the next couple of days. What should I expect to get back on the PPI, will there be a market value on it? Will he take into account the way the owner installed the pieces or will he be looking strictly at mechanical concerns?

What should I have him focus on knowing the owner did all of his own maintenance?
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post #2 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 12:15 PM
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PPIs do not generally include a market value. Did the owner document what he did on the car and does he have receipts for the parts and fluids?

In general, the more that is done to a Ferrari, the less it is worth, unless you find a buyer whose tastes line up with yours. My car has $25K+ worth of wheels and brakes and they are not worth a cent more to a buyer.

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post #3 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 12:18 PM Thread Starter
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I have taken into account a few pieces that I would need to change to suit my taste, but you are very right. The way its set up right now, the market for buyers would be pretty small. His asking price is right in line with similar cars that don't have accessories added on so I think he's at a fair price.

He is researching for me now to find out what all the owner has done and what kind of service history/documentation the car has.
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post #4 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
In general, the more that is done to a Ferrari, the less it is worth, unless you find a buyer whose tastes line up with yours.
+1 I think Taz is spot on.

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post #5 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 01:49 PM
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I agree with that a market value is not normal.

What a typical PPI would give you is current state of the car and therefore you ability to understand what may need to be done to the car to make it 'perfect'. The most important being the pieces one cannot normally see and would want a pro inspection: Engine and mechanicals with some reporting on body from underneath.

From such a report you may negotiate the current market price. It is a point in time discovery and will almost be worthless a month down the road. Prior work with paperwork is nice but doesn't tell you where it stands today. Your mechanic may offer his two cents, but I would never hold them to much more than their pro input. Too many arguments have been started by 'you said then this happened' scenarios. PPIs are for the greater aspects one should look for.

I would have to search for the 'ultimate' checklist posted here a couple months ago, but that list probably would drive most PPI mechs over the top and almost guarantee themselves into a dispute.

Getting the basics understood is good enough to find what you may be expecting to spend to get it normalized...if needed. Cosmetics might be 'added' to a PPI, but you can easily see those items..though a Pro may have better insight to dash, seats, rubber bits etc.

Oh, yes, I would expect a writeup ONLY to the tested parts of the car interface readouts and leakdown or press tests.

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post #6 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
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I know a lot of the Ferrari loyalists will probably not agree with my selection, but to me it fits very well into what I've been looking for..

I will definitely have them perform leakdown/compression check along with all the mechanicals and regular PPI checks. I have a call in to Evolution Motorsports now hoping to hear from them soon. If not, I may go back to Andy at FSM and get his take on it. The reason I was asking about the market value is this is the first time my small town bank has done anything like this. It didn't show up in kelly blue book so I got a phone call asking if the PPI would show how much the car is worth.

With that question answered, What kind of hit to the value would a Ferrari take if the car had a lot of aftermarket parts on it? I'm starting to get a little concerned that he may have the car listed a little high.

He, unfortunately, doesn't have any of the original parts. The seller is claiming $50,000 in aftermarket parts, which I believe because I've poked around at the carbon fiber parts websites and that number agrees.

He is at $85,000 for the car which is a tad high but we haven't started negotiating. Would the parts "hurt" the value or would it just not increase the value?

Here is a quick list of everything that I've seen on the car so far.
- Wheels
- Hamann Body kit
- Spoiler
-Challenge Grills
- Exhaust
- Carbon door panels
- Carbon door sills
- Carbon dash
- Carbon gauges
- 430 overlay on tach (yellow)
- Novi coilovers
- Ferrari Carbon Fiber Sport Seats
- Carbon fiber engine bay side panels
- Polished intake boxes
- polished valve covers (not a fan at ALL!)
- Stereo system with subwoofer, nav and backup cam
- LEDS in engine and in front grills

Only about 75% of the stuff thats been done looks like something I'd want done, but they are all very high end parts.
The service is "up to date" but still waiting to see exactly what that means as soon as he gets the service documents.
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post #7 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 02:50 PM
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From average market value, I would say the list above would have a neutral to slightly negative effect.

The key is exactly as Taz stated - "the more that is done to a Ferrari, the less it is worth, unless you find a buyer whose tastes line up with yours." Unless the mods are exactly what the buyer would have wanted, most want an unmolested car.

Most items that are one-for-one swaps are neutral - think wheels since you can't really sell a car without them. A more expensive set of wheels doesn't necessarily add value to the market price. Other items, such as the body kit, which are additions vice swaps to the car also may or may not change the value. If you like the mod, it may increase it since you may opt to purchase that yourself if it didn't have it. If you didn't like it, it would negatively effect the price since you can't "undrill" the holes and remove it.

Without knowing the particulars of that car, I'd say that $85K for a coupe with 19K on the clock is on the high side of the market. When you add the fact that it is without documented service history, it is WELL over market price.

The only option I can see that would add value to most buyers are the factory Sport Seats.

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post #8 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 03:33 PM
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Very modified cars are typically not in very good condition. The prototypical owner who does that to a car drives it like he stole it. Put another way, it is ridden hard and put up wet.

If a client brought that in for an inspection I wouldn't take his money. I'd tell him to just take it back to its owner.

You are certainly entitled to do whatever you want to your car but buy a good one and then do it.


Also from the looks of the picture it is on a sales lot that seems to specialized in Blinged up cars. Bad choice. If it was a good car it would be for sale at a location that specializes in Ferrari, not one that specializes in Blingmobiles.
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post #9 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 05:10 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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If a client brought that in for an inspection I wouldn't take his money. I'd tell him to just take it back to its owner.
Wow, that bad, huh? I didn't realize that aftermarket items would push a car past the point of not even being eligible for a PPI.

The only thing I'm leery of (mechanically) is the coilovers. I think the car is a little low for gettig around a town that doesn't see many sports cars and zero exotics.

I think I will continue to move forward with an independent PPI. I appreciate everyone's input though. Lots of things to consider when talking with the shop and negotiating a price.
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post #10 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 05:24 PM
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You have to have serious confidence in the seller to buy a modded car and feel comfortable. Like Brian says, odds are this dealership has no idea where this car is mechanically sound or not. They're most likely not even half qualified to guess if it mechanically sound.

The car could've been bought from a highline auction, or like Brian said it could've been seriously abused and dumped. This puts the repairs responsibility on the next buyer so the last owner can move on to abusing a new car.

Must buyers prefer to start with a clean and original car, this makes a modified car worth less to them. If you specifically prefer a modified car and appreciate the savings you will get from not buying all of the products new and at full retail price, you're in an advantageous buying position.

Just keep in mind cars generally don't go to highly reputable shops to have this type of work done. they go to a "homie's kustomz" and aren't disasembled and refitted by guys that really know and care how it's done.

Personally, unless you know who did the mod work and know that they are qualified and have proven to be capable you could be buying a can of worms.


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post #11 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 08:18 PM
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keep it real !
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post #12 of 21 Old 03-26-2012, 08:39 PM
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So much good advice, so easily ignored.

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post #13 of 21 Old 03-27-2012, 12:35 AM
 
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This car was for sale in May, 2007, through Ferrari of Central Florida: Argento Nürburgring with Cuoio interior, shields, aluminum calipers, Challenge grille, Capristo exhaust, 10,386 miles. It had a belt service in January, 2005, and a 10K mile service in May, 2005; at the time, they were asking $134,500.

Mercedes-Benz of South Orlando had it for sale in June, 2007.

Then it was back at Central in February, 2008, with 10,663 miles, for $115,000; still liveried in the aforementioned specifications.

A month later it was for sale through Elite Auto Buy, Inc., of Georgia, 10,668 miles, $108,500 - still stock.

In November, 2011, it was for sale on eBay at Auto Junction of Phoenix, AZ, with 15,136 miles. Still listed as Argento Nürburgring with Cuoio interior - no mention of the aftermarket modifications.

If it was still stock in November, and the current owner has spent, let's say, the last 12+ weeks putting fifty grand into a car for which he's only asking $85K - why is he selling it in the first place? The only way that wouldn't seem odd to me is if he owns an aftermarket tuning company and just buys cars, mods them and then sells them (cheaply?) in the hopes that word of mouth will buy him notoriety in the tuner world.

The serial number you posted is definitely correct, right? 122455? Where is the car currently located? Are you in the same city as the car?

The other replies in this thread are really valuable information and advice that should be considered before making a final decision. And while a PPI won't tell you market value of a car as extensively modified as this one, having the technician inspect installation quality of all engine-related and electrical components is serious peace of mind. Good luck, and please keep us posted as you continue with your search and/or acquisition process.

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post #14 of 21 Old 03-27-2012, 06:52 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for everyone's replies.

Its not that I'm "ignoring all the good advice", I'm taking everyones advice and using it to help guide me through the buying process.

The dealership that has the car did all the work on it, most of the cars on their lot have at least wheels, tint and some have wraps. From what I've been told (and still waiting for them to provide the service history) the previous owner only did the valve and intake covers. Everything else was done at the dealership to dress the car up for a sale.

The car is at Luxor Auto in mesa, AZ. The guy that I've been talking to has been really helpful. I originally had called them about another 360 spider they had but it sold and he put me in touch with an individual that had a similar car. After speaking with that car's mechanic, I didn't persue it any further (theres another thread on this). The salesman called me back and said they had one they were dressing up and would be available soon and sent me these pictures.

They referred me to Evolution Motorsports to do the PPI, but I think I'm going to have them take it to Andy at FMS. He was brutally honest with me about the last car, even though he knew it would probably cost the owner the sale, he still gave me his absolute honest opinion of the work that had been performed (and he was the one that did it) and told me what to expect.

Evolution specializes in Tuner cars, body kits, etc and they do a lot of work on porsches. I think Andy will give me a better PPI due to his experience with working on Ferraris..
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post #15 of 21 Old 03-27-2012, 06:54 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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In November, 2011, it was for sale on eBay at Auto Junction of Phoenix, AZ, with 15,136 miles. Still listed as Argento Nürburgring with Cuoio interior - no mention of the aftermarket modifications.

If it was still stock in November, and the current owner has spent, let's say, the last 12+ weeks putting fifty grand into a car for which he's only asking $85K - why is he selling it in the first place? The only way that wouldn't seem odd to me is if he owns an aftermarket tuning company and just buys cars, mods them and then sells them (cheaply?) in the hopes that word of mouth will buy him notoriety in the tuner world.

The serial number you posted is definitely correct, right? 122455? Where is the car currently located? Are you in the same city as the car?
Thank you for all that, that's a huge help! The car has 15,293 on it now. Which means they've only put 157 miles on it since it was sold last when it was still stock. That means his story of the dealership doing all the work to it matches up. That's a huge help, thanks again!

(and Yes, thats the correct VIN)

No, I'm in Oklahoma and the car is in Arizona. If the PPI goes well, I will fly out and drive the car and proceed from there.
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post #16 of 21 Old 03-27-2012, 08:02 AM
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The fact that this car has changed hands so many times in so few miles is very telling.

I'd keep shopping.

There are a lot of people here with a lot of experience in this all telling you the same thing.
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post #17 of 21 Old 03-27-2012, 10:44 AM Thread Starter
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The more I think about it, the more I feel like I'm not getting the amount of work from the dealer as I would like to see, which combined with a car that has all this work done, I'm getting a little uncomfortable. Everytime I call him with a question, he doesn't have an answer and the documentation is still MIA..

I've made a call on a car that's listed with a Ferrari dealership and the level of response I get from them is extraordinary compared to a "car lot".. He did all of his research on the car before listing it so I get my answers without having to wait. I will update this once I get a little more information. Thanks for everyones advice.
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post #18 of 21 Old 03-30-2012, 04:04 AM
 
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I'm confused...
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterboy222 View Post
It has 19k miles on it now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterboy222 View Post
The car has 15,293 on it now.
And so for posterity (and my own personal clarity), can we confirm that this car has 15K miles or 19K miles?

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post #19 of 21 Old 04-02-2012, 06:42 AM Thread Starter
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Absolutely, sorry for the confusion. I was basing my 15,293 on the pictures he had sent of the dash where you could see the odometer. The salesman (that didn't have the car on his lot yet) told me it had 19k on it.

I believe it really does have 19k and the pics he sent me were the pics the previous owner had sent him.
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post #20 of 21 Old 04-02-2012, 07:35 AM
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Absolutely, sorry for the confusion. I was basing my 15,293 on the pictures he had sent of the dash where you could see the odometer. The salesman (that didn't have the car on his lot yet) told me it had 19k on it.

I believe it really does have 19k and the pics he sent me were the pics the previous owner had sent him.
That in itself is very concerning!

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