New "California" with double clutch system ? - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 13 Old 06-17-2008, 05:28 AM Thread Starter
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New "California" with double clutch system ?

Dear friends

I've read that the new "California" uses a double clutch system, which put's gear change time to "0"(nil). First I believe that any mechanical system needs a certain time to interact within its parts to produce a functioning, but nevertheless I would like to put this gearchange speed in relative comparison to, lets say, the Scuderia's 60 milliseconds. After all, is this a new time measuring of mechanical interaction, which is not comparable to standard gear changing or else ?
Unfortunately, I have no mechanical ingeneering background, therefore is it possible, that somebody could explain to me the exact functioning of a double clutch system ?

Thanks !
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post #2 of 13 Old 06-17-2008, 08:54 AM
 
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The Scuderia as well as others with the F1 type transmission all use the double clutch system. Think of the clutch as a barrel with another clutch on the inside going through the barrel but can move back and forth inside of it. Let's say for instance the outside part of the clutch is engaged when in first gear. At this time the inside part is locked into second gear so when you push the paddle, all the car has to do is engage the inside clutch and disengage the outside clutch. Then the outside part can lock into third gear getting ready for the next change, and when this is done the inside will position itself in fourth for the next.

I could be totally wrong but this was the impression I got when reading about them.

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post #3 of 13 Old 06-17-2008, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitri View Post
The Scuderia as well as others with the F1 type transmission all use the double clutch system. Think of the clutch as a barrel with another clutch on the inside going through the barrel but can move back and forth inside of it. Let's say for instance the outside part of the clutch is engaged when in first gear. At this time the inside part is locked into second gear so when you push the paddle, all the car has to do is engage the inside clutch and disengage the outside clutch. Then the outside part can lock into third gear getting ready for the next change, and when this is done the inside will position itself in fourth for the next.

I could be totally wrong but this was the impression I got when reading about them.
Many thanks for that well done explenation. But why then (if it is the same system as with previous paddle shifters) should the gear changing time now be zero seconds ?
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post #4 of 13 Old 06-17-2008, 10:03 AM
 
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I don't know if technology is in place to be able to make a PERFECT and SEAMLESS gear change yet, but over the years the F1 transmission in production cars has become more and more efficient and much quicker. I think the last year of the F355 may have offered the paddle shifters...I'll try to find various shift times between those, the 360, F430, 550, 575, 599, the CS, the Scuderia, etc...

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post #5 of 13 Old 06-17-2008, 10:08 AM
 
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Here is a picture of it.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/dual-c...ansmission.htm

And this website has an interactive video that REALLY helps things make sense.

Breck
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post #6 of 13 Old 06-17-2008, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dmitri View Post
Here is a picture of it.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/dual-c...ansmission.htm

And this website has an interactive video that REALLY helps things make sense.
Wonderful ! Thank you very much for that link. I'll digest it.
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post #7 of 13 Old 06-17-2008, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitri View Post
I don't know if technology is in place to be able to make a PERFECT and SEAMLESS gear change yet, but over the years the F1 transmission in production cars has become more and more efficient and much quicker. I think the last year of the F355 may have offered the paddle shifters...I'll try to find various shift times between those, the 360, F430, 550, 575, 599, the CS, the Scuderia, etc...
The evolution of the gear change spped is documented in the official Scuderia presentation book: Its 30-40 (milliseconds) in the present F1 car, 60 ms on the Scuderia, 100ms on the 599 GTB nad 150 ms in the F430, 575 and 550 being above that.
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post #8 of 13 Old 06-17-2008, 08:02 PM
 
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Okay, well that answers one of the questions right there. However I don't think it is possible to have that kind of instant or seamless gear change, even though what we have now is pretty close.

The closest I think we can physically get to it would be the CVT or Continuously Variable Transmission.

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post #9 of 13 Old 06-18-2008, 12:32 PM
 
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the CVT is not instantaneous, and any system has a time to respond, there is not such a thing as changing gears in no time

and not all F1-type transmissions have 2 clutches

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going." - J. P. Kennedy
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post #10 of 13 Old 06-18-2008, 12:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stile - alpine View Post
the CVT is not instantaneous, and any system has a time to respond, there is not such a thing as changing gears in no time
But then again, the CVT doesn't really change gears, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stile - alpine View Post
and not all F1-type transmissions have 2 clutches
I thought all of Ferrari's F1 tranny road cars used the dual-clutch system. DId they simply have a single electronic clutch with a sequential transmission?

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post #11 of 13 Old 06-18-2008, 01:50 PM
 
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But then again, the CVT doesn't really change gears, does it? I thought all of Ferrari's F1 tranny road cars used the dual-clutch system. DId they simply have a single electronic clutch with a sequential transmission?
It does change gears, if you put your foot down the revs go up, like when a normal automatic cars downshifts. Try driving a car with the CVT and you'll understand, it's pretty cool. The difference is that you don't always have discrete gear changes, if you keep your foot down the revs will stay high and the gear changes will be continuous.

Understand that when I say gears I mean "speed", not the physical gears with tooths and everything, because the CVT doesn't have that.

It is much easier in Portuguese, we have 2 different words for that (marcha and engrenagem).

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post #12 of 13 Old 06-18-2008, 01:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stile - alpine View Post
It does change gears, if you put your foot down the revs go up, like when a normal automatic cars downshifts. Try driving a car with the CVT and you'll understand, it's pretty cool. The difference is that you don't always have discrete gear changes, if you keep your foot down the revs will stay high and the gear changes will be continuous.

Understand that when I say gears I mean "speed", not the physical gears with tooths and everything, because the CVT doesn't have that.

It is much easier in Portuguese, we have 2 different words for that (marcha and engrenagem).
Right, CVTs are very interesting in how they work, I had done some research on them a year or so ago.

Do you know which F1 transmissions don't use the dual clutch system?

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post #13 of 13 Old 06-19-2008, 09:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitri View Post
Right, CVTs are very interesting in how they work, I had done some research on them a year or so ago.

Do you know which F1 transmissions don't use the dual clutch system?
as far as I know, all the Ferraris except the new California

outside the rosso world, Bugatti uses it in the Veyron and Audi had a model of the old TT that had tiptronic with dual clutches

don't know of any other models besides those

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going." - J. P. Kennedy

Last edited by stile - alpine; 06-19-2008 at 09:50 AM. Reason: no hablo ingles
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