McLaren spying row. - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 09:36 AM Thread Starter
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McLaren spying row.

Decision just announced - McLaren will have a $100 million fine, plus exclusion from constructors points
Drivers unaffected...
Wow.we haven't heard the last!!
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post #2 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 10:26 AM
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That's a huge fine, over the top in my opinion, 10 Mil USD would have been more appropriate.
Just been watching Eddie Jordan on C4 news, he says that spying was rife in his days as a constructor, but it's never going to stop. If an engineer leaves one company to go to another he is going to use some of what he learned previously at the new company, and more importantly if that engineer invented a new technique or process, he cannot be stopped from taking what's in his brain to another company.
It's the same in any industry, I employ a team of sales people, some are very good and I look after them to ensure they remain loyal to me and don't leave. If they do leave I can't stop them from using the techniques I've taught them in their new job.

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post #3 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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I can't see any way that judgement is gonna work or have the desired effect of dissuading others, or am I missing something?
Surely they'll appeal?
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post #4 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 11:02 AM
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The indication on C4 News was that Ron Dennis would appeal. I would.

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post #5 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiegibbs View Post
The indication on C4 News was that Ron Dennis would appeal. I would.
Yeah but then you have to look at this point as well....


"However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points **.


So basically the drivers squealed on the team, the Manufacturer gets fined but the drivers keep their points. So the drivers knew they were using Ferrari’s information, they said nothing and won race after race and when they got caught they said we will give you the information you want but we want to keep our points. So the drivers were aware, are keeping the points and they squealed on their team….WOW….and they said MS was an ass…….


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post #6 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 12:16 PM
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That's a difficult one. If they don't appeal they probably run the risk of losing all sponsorship because they look guilty. If they appeal and win or at least get the fine reduced they might regain some credibility and keep some sponsors. However, the evidence that's appeared in public make it look like they are guilty.

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post #7 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 01:04 PM
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$100Million is a lot but it won't kill Mclaren, what will do it for them is negative publicity. The longer this drags the harder it will be for them to recover.

I don't think it is about someone taking a few ideas with them to a new job. It is about out and out industrial espionage. I am sure it goes on with other teams, but these guys got caught - big time!

Dont know if you recall this case from c1993.

VW AGREES TO PAY G.M. $100 MILLION IN ESPIONAGE SUIT
Volkswagen agrees to pay $100 million to General Motors to settle acccusations of stealing trade secrets; also agrees to buy at least $1 billion worth of auto parts from GM over next seven years; companies will drop civil suits against each other; Volkswagen does not admit wrongdoing but acknowledges possible 'illegal activities' by executives who defected from GM; Jose Ignacio Lopez de Arriortua, central figure in case, faces criminal charges in Germany; feud began when he left GM for Volkswagen in 1993, spurning promotion offer and allegedly taking thousands of pages of company documents filled with trade secrets; GM's US racketeering suit also named Volkswagen, chief executive Ferdinand Piech and board member Jens Neumann; three executives Lopez brought with him were also indicted in Germany


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post #8 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 01:54 PM
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How they can take away all the points from the constructors and leave the drivers with theirs is beyond belief. Either the team has done wrong or they have not. In this case it seems both.

Of course I vowed (even though a massive Ferrari fan ) that if Mc had been completely disqualified I would of stopped watching this season as there would of been no challenge for the drivers championship. Maybe that had something to do with it.

Stupid and bizarre, but then I do not know all the facts.
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post #9 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 03:06 PM
 
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And the FIA are as bad too

Quote:
Originally Posted by alsaautomotive View Post
Decision just announced - McLaren will have a $100 million fine, plus exclusion from constructors points
Drivers unaffected...
Wow.we haven't heard the last!!

A lot of this goes back ages. Earlier in the year, Ferrari had an illegal floor which the ride height dropped under load.. ie.. a corner. giving the car more grip. The FIA test of pushing on the floor was not strong enough to move the ride height, therefore not discovering Ferrari's cheating.

The point Todt was making is that eventhough the Ferrai was illegal, Mclaren shouldnt have information about the Ferrari car, (in other words, they shouldnt have known Ferrari were cheating) and its up to the FIA to repremand McLaren, not Ferrari.

Ferrari should also be banned in this case for the moveable floorpan as it broke the rules hence was ilegal?????howeaver you look at it,its CHEATING and Ferrari would have continued to CHEAT by using it had this not come to light(whatever the source).

Remember when Ferrari a few years ago found out about an illegal Mclaren brake system by shoving a press camera in the cockpit of a broken down Couthard car on the side of the race track. so he without sin.......

Mika Salo has stated that throughout his time with Ferrari they routinely spied on Mclaren. Couple this to the fact that they regularly manufactured the outcome of races. Then the fact that Schumacher was a rampant cheater himself. (something I never understoood as he had the talent to avoid such extremes)

Is it just me, or does it sound like Ferrari are desperate to win back some public support after failing to win the constructors title for the last two years and only managing a reletively lacklustre start to this season.
The whole situation stinks of hypocrisy and corruption.

I still wouldn't put it past Ferrari to have engineered the whole affair to secure an easy title. Do you think Nigel Stepney is still on the payroll of Ferrari and this is all a sting that we are missing?
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post #10 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcqv View Post
How they can take away all the points from the constructors and leave the drivers with theirs is beyond belief. Either the team has done wrong or they have not. In this case it seems both.
I don't get that either. I can only guess at a PR damage limitation exercise. There must be some wrongdoing for the team to have been punished and lose their points (from what I understand points mean $revenues). But there is a great deal of focus on Hamilton at the moment and it is possible that the FIA may view that to punish the team as whole i.e. inc the drivers & particularly Hamilton might lead to a PR backlash against the FIA and also damage the overall image of the sport. So this might be a compromise situation. It would seem though that even if it is a compromise the offence must have been quite severe as the punishment is not inconsequential.

Interesting question is, where does this leave Ferrari? If there is a perpetrator, there is also a victim. Any disclosure of intellectual property used for competitive advantage is likely to irretrievable.

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post #11 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fixitsan View Post
A lot of this goes back ages. Earlier in the year, Ferrari had an illegal floor which the ride height dropped under load.. ie.. a corner. giving the car more grip. The FIA test of pushing on the floor was not strong enough to move the ride height, therefore not discovering Ferrari's cheating.

The point Todt was making is that eventhough the Ferrai was illegal, Mclaren shouldnt have information about the Ferrari car, (in other words, they shouldnt have known Ferrari were cheating) and its up to the FIA to repremand McLaren, not Ferrari.

Ferrari should also be banned in this case for the moveable floorpan as it broke the rules hence was ilegal?????howeaver you look at it,its CHEATING and Ferrari would have continued to CHEAT by using it had this not come to light(whatever the source).

Remember when Ferrari a few years ago found out about an illegal Mclaren brake system by shoving a press camera in the cockpit of a broken down Couthard car on the side of the race track. so he without sin.......

Mika Salo has stated that throughout his time with Ferrari they routinely spied on Mclaren. Couple this to the fact that they regularly manufactured the outcome of races. Then the fact that Schumacher was a rampant cheater himself. (something I never understoood as he had the talent to avoid such extremes)

Is it just me, or does it sound like Ferrari are desperate to win back some public support after failing to win the constructors title for the last two years and only managing a reletively lacklustre start to this season.
The whole situation stinks of hypocrisy and corruption.

I still wouldn't put it past Ferrari to have engineered the whole affair to secure an easy title. Do you think Nigel Stepney is still on the payroll of Ferrari and this is all a sting that we are missing?
I think that there is always a degree of competitive espionage/research call it what you will in any business environment.

It is a basic rule of business that a company will seek a competitive edge, jockeying for position (for example, consider your blatantly anti-Ferrari post in a Ferrari Forum, with strategic highlighting of the word 'cheat' - jockeying for position????) so sometimes this involves bending the rules/playing in the grey area until it is decreed absolutely and in no uncertain terms that a practice is unacceptable. However I do not think that is unethical.

If a system has been developed (by whomsoever whether it be Ferrari, Mclaren, Toyota etc, etc) and there is no clear cut statement of acceptability than that is fine in my opinion. Once it is decreed that a system/technology is unaccpetable/illegal, to continue to use it (if at all possible) is unethical.

Whether Ferrari have 'engineered' this episode in order to 'secure an easy title' - I think it highly unlikely. However, being reasonable, if for one moment we entertain this 'preposterous' proposition of yours:

1)The negative consequences for Ferrari should they be found out far out weigh any positives of an 'easy title'. For example Mclaren got found out and look how much it has cost them - $100 Million and the need to go into a defensive position on the Ferrarilife Forum.
2) To engineer this kind of situation one would need to be 100% certain that any subsequent investigation would not yield any cracks - virtually impossible. For example Coughlans ineptitude revealed Mclarens possession of the documents belonging to Ferrari.
3) You must be relatively new to F1. If you go back to the 70's & 80's Ferrari went through a very poor period performance wise compared to Mclaren, Williams and others. Ferrari do not need to engineer an 'easy title'.
4) As for Stepney - probably just another human being who succumbed to the sin of avarice - Mclaren has a load of surplus cash too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fixitsan View Post
Is it just me, or does it sound like Ferrari are desperate to win back some public support after failing to win the constructors title for the last two years and only managing a reletively lacklustre start to this season.
The whole situation stinks of hypocrisy and corruption.
5) I think it is just you. Ferrari do not need 'to win back some public support' they have the TIFOSI and I agree it does stink of hypocrisy and corruption, or rather, Stepney, Coughlan and Mclaren .
.

Last edited by t1fosI; 09-13-2007 at 04:24 PM.
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post #12 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 06:21 PM
 
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No comment. :drive:
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post #13 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 06:49 PM
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JUST IMAGINE, How many Mercedes Benz vehicles u could buy with 120 MILLION dollars!!!
I guess Mclaren isn't invincible!
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post #14 of 23 Old 09-13-2007, 10:46 PM
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My wife drives pass a Ferrari dealership every morning at around 7:15am. Normally it is in darkness with the cars parked outside (normally Maserati I think) parked side on to show the profile. This morning they were all rear on to the window. In the middle was a Ferrari (model not noted) in the showroom all lit up and the registration plate - MC55 SPY

t1fosI I agree with you, McLaren must have done something bad, we will have to see if it ever comes out.

The point that annoyed me on UK TV was the relief because the drivers will not get their points removed, never mind the team.
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post #15 of 23 Old 09-14-2007, 12:03 AM
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I agree with you T1f & Malc. We probably won't ever know all the facts, but McLaren must have done something pretty bad, the FIA won't have found them guilty and fined them so much if they didn't have sufficient evidence.

It's hard to believe it was all a set up by Ferrari, as T1f said, they had been in the doldrums for many years before MS joined, but throughout all of that, they still had the largest fan base and always will have. The word Ferrari is still magical for billions of people, and no one else has or ever will have that.

I love that licence plate at the dealership

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post #16 of 23 Old 09-14-2007, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alsaautomotive View Post
Decision just announced - McLaren will have a $100 million fine, plus exclusion from constructors points
Drivers unaffected...
Wow.we haven't heard the last!!
Here is the full article from the Sports Network:

McLaren fined $100 million, stripped of points


Paris, France (Sports Network) - The McLaren-Mercedes team has been penalized heavily for its part in the spying scandal in Formula One racing, but Thursday's ruling will not affect leading drivers Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso.
The team has been fined $100 million and has been stripped of its points in the constructors' standings after a ruling Thursday by the FIA World Motor Sport Council (WMSC).
"The WMSC have stripped Vodafone McLaren Mercedes of all constructor points in the 2007 FIA Formula One world championship and the team can score no points for the remainder of the season," said an FIA statement.
"Furthermore, the team will pay a fine equal to $100 million, less the FOM (Formula One Management) income lost as a result of the points deduction.
"However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points."
The penalty follows McLaren's admission that the team was in possession of confidential technical data belonging to rival team Ferrari.
"The most important thing is that we will be going motor racing this weekend, the rest of the season and every season," McLaren said in a statement. "This means that our drivers can continue to compete for the World Championship."
The Ferrari team also issued a statement, saying "Ferrari is satisfied that the truth has now emerged."
Earlier this year, news broke that a Ferrari employee apparently gave documents to McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan. Ferrari mechanic Nigel Stepney, accused of supplying those documents to the rival team, was subsequently fired. Coughlan was suspended.
"We have never denied that the information from Ferrari was in the personal possession of one of our employees at his home," McLaren's statement continued. "The issue is: was this information used by McLaren? This is not the case and has not been proven today.
"We are also continually asked if McLaren didn't use the information, what was the reason for Stepney and Coughlan collecting all this data about Ferrari? We can only speculate, as neither Coughlan nor Stepney gave evidence at today's hearing, but we do know that they were both seeking employment with other teams, as already confirmed by both Honda and Toyota."
An initial ruling in July acknowledged that McLaren had possession of the technical data, but had not used it to its advantage. Sanctions were not issued at the time.
New evidence apparently evolved and the FIA asked McLaren drivers to cooperate in exchange for immunity.
"Today's evidence given to the FIA by our drivers, engineers and staff clearly demonstrated that we did not use any leaked information to gain a competitive advantage," McLaren added.
The McLaren drivers, Hamilton and Alonso, rank 1-2 in the driver standings.
With four races remaining in the 2007 season, including the upcoming Belgium Grand Prix, Hamilton has a three-point lead over Alonso. Ferrari driver Kimi Raikkonen is 18 points behind in third place, while Felipe Massa -- also of Ferrari -- is another five points off the pace.
McLaren had 166 points and a lead of 23 over Ferrari in the constructors' standings. Ferrari will now be all but assured of the title.
Thursday's ruling also included a provision for the WMSC to take further action against McLaren. "The WMSC will receive a full technical report on the 2008 McLaren car and will take a decision at its December 2007 meeting as to what sanction, if any, will be imposed on the team for the 2008 season."
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post #17 of 23 Old 09-15-2007, 12:10 AM
 
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Whether Ferrari have 'engineered' this episode in order to 'secure an easy title' - I think it highly unlikely. However, being reasonable, if for one moment we entertain this 'preposterous' proposition of yours:

1)The negative consequences for Ferrari should they be found out far out weigh any positives of an 'easy title'. For example Mclaren got found out and look how much it has cost them - $100 Million and the need to go into a defensive position on the Ferrarilife Forum.

>>>>>
I have nothing to do with McLaren. I am a sportsman and I think that this is unfair punishment for something which as yet is almost an unknown affair. Was it fair of Schumacher to drive into Hill early in his career or for him to just break down where he did in Monaco ?
Where were the large fines then ?
I am an F1 fan merely concerned this will attract the wrong sort of attention to the sport, and even people who are normally non-fans are asking me to explain how the fine could be so high.

As you say, an element of espionage takes place naturally. Remember, McLaren's car does not have any device which means they are cheating, this is not even a car issue at all, it has to do with the ownership o fintellectual property, and a civil court is the correct place for that to be settled.



2) To engineer this kind of situation one would need to be 100% certain that any subsequent investigation would not yield any cracks - virtually impossible. For example Coughlans ineptitude revealed Mclarens possession of the documents belonging to Ferrari.

You can only accuse Coughlan of ineptitude if his role was as a spy. He did not try to conceal anything so his release was not inept. His role in the matter was to produce a schematic for the FIA which was later used to get Ferrari's flexible floor design banned. That is not ineptitue but skill.



3) You must be relatively new to F1. If you go back to the 70's & 80's Ferrari went through a very poor period performance wise compared to Mclaren, Williams and others. Ferrari do not need to engineer an 'easy title'.

Your patronising attitude must have lost you many friends.
I remember those days well. They are hardly relevant to Ferrari having a flexible floor these days, one which has since been banned



4) As for Stepney - probably just another human being who succumbed to the sin of avarice - Mclaren has a load of surplus cash too.

That's a serious allegation of which you have no evidence. Surely you are feeling the need to engineer a win here.


5) I think it is just you. Ferrari do not need 'to win back some public support' they have the TIFOSI and I agree it does stink of hypocrisy and corruption, or rather, Stepney, Coughlan and Mclaren .

They worked at getting an illegal device banned from the Ferrari. and Ferrari have managed to get them punished by making them losing title victory points as a result. Industrial espionage is not a job for a governing body of any sport to deal with. The implications are far greater.
This is as much an empowerment exercise for the governing body as it is abotu anything else. one ownders if they will now look backwards at other cases where their previous involvement has been negligible, adn if they will stay in the same frame of mind for the future. As it is nobody at McLaren has anything to worry about, their car has been ruled to be legal all season
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post #18 of 23 Old 09-15-2007, 10:04 AM
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Whether Ferrari have 'engineered' this episode in order to 'secure an easy title' - I think it highly unlikely. However, being reasonable, if for one moment we entertain this 'preposterous' proposition of yours:

1)The negative consequences for Ferrari should they be found out far out weigh any positives of an 'easy title'. For example Mclaren got found out and look how much it has cost them - $100 Million and the need to go into a defensive position on the Ferrarilife Forum.

>>>>>
I have nothing to do with McLaren. I am a sportsman and I think that this is unfair punishment for something which as yet is almost an unknown affair. Was it fair of Schumacher to drive into Hill early in his career or for him to just break down where he did in Monaco ?
Where were the large fines then ?
I am an F1 fan merely concerned this will attract the wrong sort of attention to the sport, and even people who are normally non-fans are asking me to explain how the fine could be so high.

You should have a debate about the sportsmanly conduct of the Mclaren team members.

As you say, an element of espionage takes place naturally. Remember, McLaren's car does not have any device which means they are cheating, this is not even a car issue at all, it has to do with the ownership o fintellectual property, and a civil court is the correct place for that to be settled.


The punishment fits the crime. As far as I am aware Ferrari are addressing the issue in the civil courts as well. As for MCLAREN'S CAR not having any CHEATING devices, well that remains to be seen, unless ofcourse you are in possession of confidential technical information belonging to Mclaren. In which case I would urge you to return these to Mclaren immediately (you did mention that you have nothing to do with Mclaren?).

Ofcourse the other way a team could CHEAT is acquire a superior rival teams technical bluprints, say through your chief designer, and try and use them on your car


2) To engineer this kind of situation one would need to be 100% certain that any subsequent investigation would not yield any cracks - virtually impossible. For example Coughlans ineptitude revealed Mclarens possession of the documents belonging to Ferrari.

You can only accuse Coughlan of ineptitude if his role was as a spy. He did not try to conceal anything so his release was not inept. His role in the matter was to produce a schematic for the FIA which was later used to get Ferrari's flexible floor design banned. That is not ineptitue but skill.


In my opinion, Coughlan was skillfully inept on two counts.
Firstly taking what was quite clearly confidential information belonging to Ferrari to a photocopying shop - duh!

Secondly if he did not try to conceal anything, why did it require a Police investigation to reveal the theft of information - why did he not do the honourable or 'Sportsmanlike' thing and either refuse the information from Stepney in the first place or hand it back to Ferrari when he knew that was where it came from. That would have been the gentlemanly thing to do.

The other person in my opinion who has demonstrated ineptness is Mclaren's CEO, does he not know what goes on at the highest level of his organisation? or maybe he does?


3) You must be relatively new to F1. If you go back to the 70's & 80's Ferrari went through a very poor period performance wise compared to Mclaren, Williams and others. Ferrari do not need to engineer an 'easy title'.

Your patronising attitude must have lost you many friends.
I remember those days well. They are hardly relevant to Ferrari having a flexible floor these days, one which has since been banned


I have no friends that is why I spend my time responding to frivolous comments such as these.

It is simple, Ferrari know how to lose, Mclaren obviously do not. In any event you keep mentioning the flexible floor - that was a grey area that Ferrari exploited until it was made clear that it was out of bounds i.e. banned. But until it was banned it was acceptable - Mclaren just didn't think of it first or couldn't make it work or whatever - sounds like sour grapes to me!


4) As for Stepney - probably just another human being who succumbed to the sin of avarice - Mclaren has a load of surplus cash too.

That's a serious allegation of which you have no evidence. Surely you are feeling the need to engineer a win here.

Read it again dude - it is not an allegation, it is just an observation on humanity. It makes no difference to me - I am a world away.


5) I think it is just you. Ferrari do not need 'to win back some public support' they have the TIFOSI and I agree it does stink of hypocrisy and corruption, or rather, Stepney, Coughlan and Mclaren .

They worked at getting an illegal device banned from the Ferrari. and Ferrari have managed to get them punished by making them losing title victory points as a result. Industrial espionage is not a job for a governing body of any sport to deal with. The implications are far greater.
This is as much an empowerment exercise for the governing body as it is abotu anything else. one ownders if they will now look backwards at other cases where their previous involvement has been negligible, adn if they will stay in the same frame of mind for the future. As it is nobody at McLaren has anything to worry about, their car has been ruled to be legal all season


As I recall it is the FIA who issued the fine and cancelled the points. Not Ferrari. Personally I think Mclaren got away lightly.

Mclaren did not complain about the flexible floor to the governing body out of altruism for the sport, they did it out of self interest. They just couldn't compete. The govening body in its wisdom listened to Mclaren and issued clarification of the rules. Now I wonder who benefitted from the governing body's decision that day? Why! it was Mclaren

The Ferrari has been legal all season too - it passed all the FIA tests before the races - otherwise they could not race. You cannot deem something to be illegal just because you don't like it or can't compete with it. When the FIA make the rules clear then the teams comply, as Ferrari have done - you cannot have compliance before the parameters are set. That means you have already decided what the rules will be - and you are in no position to make those rules. What a way to kill innovation!


Now I am off to the Chinese resto for some chicken noodle soup and beef chow mein - which I will savour all alone without any friends, oh $hit - I have to buy for the rest of the family!!

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post #19 of 23 Old 09-15-2007, 11:04 AM
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Nice one T1f:thumbup:
I'll still be your friend

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post #20 of 23 Old 09-15-2007, 12:32 PM
 
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You should have a debate about the sportsmanly conduct of the Mclaren team members.

That must be a direct reference to them having th emoral courage to give evidence which they knew may become detrimental to the team as a whole but which was in the best interest of everyone at the end of the day. I can't say that's something a SCumey would have done at his peak


As you say, an element of espionage takes place naturally. Remember, McLaren's car does not have any device which means they are cheating, this is not even a car issue at all, it has to do with the ownership o fintellectual property, and a civil court is the correct place for that to be settled.[/COLOR]

The punishment fits the crime. As far as I am aware Ferrari are addressing the issue in the civil courts as well. As for MCLAREN'S CAR not having any CHEATING devices, well that remains to be seen, unless ofcourse you are in possession of confidential technical information belonging to Mclaren. In which case I would urge you to return these to Mclaren immediately (you did mention that you have nothing to do with Mclaren?).

I have nothing to do with McLaren, and presumably if you know they are cheating you would say so


Ofcourse the other way a team could CHEAT is acquire a superior rival teams technical bluprints, say through your chief designer, and try and use them on your car


2) To engineer this kind of situation one would need to be 100% certain that any subsequent investigation would not yield any cracks - virtually impossible. For example Coughlans ineptitude revealed Mclarens possession of the documents belonging to Ferrari.

You can only accuse Coughlan of ineptitude if his role was as a spy. He did not try to conceal anything so his release was not inept. His role in the matter was to produce a schematic for the FIA which was later used to get Ferrari's flexible floor design banned. That is not ineptitue but skill.


In my opinion, Coughlan was skillfully inept on two counts.
Firstly taking what was quite clearly confidential information belonging to Ferrari to a photocopying shop - duh!

Secondly if he did not try to conceal anything, why did it require a Police investigation to reveal the theft of information - why did he not do the honourable or 'Sportsmanlike' thing and either refuse the information from Stepney in the first place or hand it back to Ferrari when he knew that was where it came from. That would have been the gentlemanly thing to do.

The other person in my opinion who has demonstrated ineptness is Mclaren's CEO, does he not know what goes on at the highest level of his organisation? or maybe he does?


There were no charges made by the police. Theft is a serious offence in any country and with no charges it can be assumed there was no evidence of theft





3) You must be relatively new to F1. If you go back to the 70's & 80's Ferrari went through a very poor period performance wise compared to Mclaren, Williams and others. Ferrari do not need to engineer an 'easy title'.

Your patronising attitude must have lost you many friends.
I remember those days well. They are hardly relevant to Ferrari having a flexible floor these days, one which has since been banned


I have no friends that is why I spend my time responding to frivolous comments such as these.

It is simple, Ferrari know how to lose, Mclaren obviously do not. In any event you keep mentioning the flexible floor - that was a grey area that Ferrari exploited until it was made clear that it was out of bounds i.e. banned. But until it was banned it was acceptable - Mclaren just didn't think of it first or couldn't make it work or whatever - sounds like sour grapes to me!



You are completely ignoring the po0ssibility that McLaren thought about it and presumed that it would be near impossible to get it through scrutineering because of the advantage it would give you. Ferrari took a chance, made a mistake and lost. BUt did they hand back the points they won from having the illegal device. They should have been made to do to keep things sportsmanly






As I recall it is the FIA who issued the fine and cancelled the points. Not Ferrari. Personally I think Mclaren got away lightly.

Mclaren did not complain about the flexible floor to the governing body out of altruism for the sport, they did it out of self interest.


It also served to assist in making things fairer for the other teams too, they weren't being completely selfish
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