the Scottsdale Auctions - is the party over? - Ferrari Life
 2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 24 Old 02-28-2016, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
intrepid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Saratoga Springs NY
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,004
Garage
the Scottsdale Auctions - is the party over?

Rick Carey's Ferrari Market Letter article, just in my email box, describes the very soft Ferrari sales results at the Scottsdale auctions. Worth a look. It reads to me as the first sign that buyers are stepping back and saying those estimates of the auctioneers are not rational. Many sales below the low estimates. It may not suggest an imminent collapse but the fat lady may be clearing her throat.

P.S. just checked the ads: not long ago there were NO 330GTC's offered as owners were thinking back the price surge that began with the 2012 Bonhams auction sale of my old 330/365GTC for $880K. that blew the top off the Ferrari market. In this new FML issue there are seven 330GTC's advertised by four sellers at between $695K and $895K. Five of the cars are offered by two sellers. Fantasy Junction is selling three. Bet one can make a quick deal for all three at a deep discount.

Seth
575M F1, Maserati Spyder, Cadillac STS-V & CTS
past: 330/365GTC speciale, F355b, 412GT, 400iA, 308GT4 2+2, 330GT 2+2, Porsche 356b Super 90, BMW 1800ti

what do I know? I drive blue Ferraris

Last edited by intrepid; 02-28-2016 at 11:16 AM.
intrepid is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 Old 02-29-2016, 01:32 AM
Owner
 
Bluebottle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Exeter, England
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,501
That seems to ring a bell over here in the UK. I have been cautiously looking for a Dino and while last year it seemed that you could advertise a good RHD one for £350K and get it, now they are still being advertised at that figure but selling, it appears, for nearer £300K.

RHD manual 550 / 575s, however, still seem to be climbing.

Seth, any chance you could forward that market letter to me at [email protected]? I should be most grateful.

Best wishes, John
Ferrari: 550 Maranello S/N 110995, Dino 246 GT S/N 6934
Other: 1990 Bentley Turbo R, 1989 Porsche 911 C2, 2004 Mercedes 500CLK, 2011 Mercedes E350 CDI, 1972 VW T2 Camper, 2014 Fiat 500C, 1963 Jaguar E-type 3.8 FHC, 2015 Maserati Granturismo Sport
Website: http://bluebottleonline.com/
Bluebottle is offline  
post #3 of 24 Old 02-29-2016, 09:06 PM
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by intrepid View Post
Rick Carey's Ferrari Market Letter article, just in my email box, describes the very soft Ferrari sales results at the Scottsdale auctions. Worth a look. It reads to me as the first sign that buyers are stepping back and saying those estimates of the auctioneers are not rational. Many sales below the low estimates. It may not suggest an imminent collapse but the fat lady may be clearing her throat.

P.S. just checked the ads: not long ago there were NO 330GTC's offered as owners were thinking back the price surge that began with the 2012 Bonhams auction sale of my old 330/365GTC for $880K. that blew the top off the Ferrari market. In this new FML issue there are seven 330GTC's advertised by four sellers at between $695K and $895K. Five of the cars are offered by two sellers. Fantasy Junction is selling three. Bet one can make a quick deal for all three at a deep discount.


Agree with you 100%. Had exactly the same thoughts when reading the last FML.

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
 
post #4 of 24 Old 03-01-2016, 12:40 PM
 
efg2014's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Ferrari Life Posts: 406
The day investors got into the market, they ruined it for all the little guys with a passion for cars but not the dough the investors had. A good thing to see the bubble deflate.
GPM and thorn like this.

2006 Ferrari F430 Coupé,
efg2014 is offline  
post #5 of 24 Old 03-06-2016, 11:44 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
intrepid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Saratoga Springs NY
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,004
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 212Export View Post
Agree with you 100%. Had exactly the same thoughts when reading the last FML.
Six months ago there were no - that's zero - 550 Maranellos offered on eBay. Today there are 15, priced between $150K and $200K with one 1600 mile item asking $275K. Bet you could buy it for a bit over $200K. Dealers have been building inventory anticipating an ever-rising market and making quiet private sales so no one really knew what the market was except at auction time. Now they're stuck with the inventory and have to move it. I saw exactly the same thing twenty-five years ago. I do not believe we'll see a collapse as dramatic as then but who knows.

John, I don't believe one can copy and send the FML electronically. But it is a very interesting bi-weekly publication with not only ads showing real markets but very good articles with detailed coverage and photography of major events. It's certainly not dear and I've subscribed since buying my old 365GTC speciale in 1978 - truly impossible to reckon it's closing on forty years since!

P.S. to John in Exeter and other brothers - and sisters - of the English variety, Judith and I will be in Prague - she for her high school class reunion !!! - after which I'll meet her there for some fun and travel. I'm hoping to be in touch with Alex Keselj, he of the Maranello family. Then we're planning to be in England the weekend of Silverstone and I'm about to email the Secretary of the FOC whether the Club will have activities at the G.P. We're then booked to sail from Southampton to New York in Queen Mary2 on the 17 July sailing. Would be wonderful to meet up with FerrariLife friends then-abouts.

Speaking of Exeter reminds me that my last visit there was to spend some time with the exceptional Amercan painter/sculptor Leonard Baskin and his young wife, a classmate of my first wife, at their home and his studio in Lurley near Tiverton. Leonard was a close friend of your great poet, Ted Hughes.

Seth
575M F1, Maserati Spyder, Cadillac STS-V & CTS
past: 330/365GTC speciale, F355b, 412GT, 400iA, 308GT4 2+2, 330GT 2+2, Porsche 356b Super 90, BMW 1800ti

what do I know? I drive blue Ferraris

Last edited by intrepid; 03-06-2016 at 12:19 PM.
intrepid is offline  
post #6 of 24 Old 03-07-2016, 02:23 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Ferrari Life Posts: 7
I've been shopping for a 308QV, and found one car in particular on eBay listed by a dealer.

(The way the internet archives history is a great thing...)

In June, they had it listed on eBay for $45,000. I'll make an educated guess that they acquired the car for $35-40K - so, they're looking for $5-10K profit. Fair enough. But in any case, it didn't sell.

Around Sept/Oct, they listed again on eBay for $55K.

It must not have sold, as they listed it again a couple of weeks ago for $65K. The bidding reached just over $60K, but it wasn't above the "minimum" of $65K, so it remained unsold.

And it's now listed again, for $62,500.

I'm not rich, or even wealthy... I'm just a guy trying to buy his 30yr-old dream car for less than a brand new Porsche Cayman. I swear, shopping for a Ferrari is just weird sometimes... a car remains unsold, so let's keep INCREASING the price!?
thorn is offline  
post #7 of 24 Old 03-09-2016, 05:45 AM
Owner
 
Bluebottle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Exeter, England
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,501
Seth, I expect the FML is probably not going to be very relevant to me anyway, as the UK RHD market seems to be very different from those parts of the world where you who drive on the wrong side of the road . I just took a look on one website (www.classicdriver.com) and while LHD cars were starting at £66K, there was nothing in RHD under £200K!

Conversely, there are three RHD Dinos under £350K, all apparently in first class order, and one fresh out of restoration at £350K, whereas last year I got the impression they were walking out of the door at £350K+. Daytonas seem to be softening, too.

Let us know when you have a better idea of your itinerary and I'll see what I can do.

As to the mystery of the ever rising asking price for unsold cars, there is one very low mileage 550 over here that has been doing the rounds of the dealers but is still unsold: when I first noticed it, I think at least 12 months ago, I was somewhat staggered by the asking price of £150K and now it's listed at £250K!!

Best wishes, John
Ferrari: 550 Maranello S/N 110995, Dino 246 GT S/N 6934
Other: 1990 Bentley Turbo R, 1989 Porsche 911 C2, 2004 Mercedes 500CLK, 2011 Mercedes E350 CDI, 1972 VW T2 Camper, 2014 Fiat 500C, 1963 Jaguar E-type 3.8 FHC, 2015 Maserati Granturismo Sport
Website: http://bluebottleonline.com/
Bluebottle is offline  
post #8 of 24 Old 03-09-2016, 07:47 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,862
A very well optioned three pedal 575M showed up on US E-Bay for $420K, but within two weeks the price dropped to $370K. 70s cars seem to be slumping more than Maranellos.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is offline  
post #9 of 24 Old 03-09-2016, 12:40 PM
Owner
 
iainuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Ferrari Life Posts: 655
The UK market has had a correction in as much as buyers have woken up to being over charged for less than perfect examples. I have spoken to a couple of knowledgeable dealers and both said that prices for properly top flight restored or original examples remain strong. If the £350k Dino you are referring to is the one at the Ferrari Centre (?) or the one at Furlonger I can spot lots of things wrong with both that make them very overpriced IMHO.

Current: F50, 246 GT (x 2), 246 GTS
Past: 360M, F430 spider, 430 Scuderia,
California (x 2), 458 Italia (x 2), 458 spider, 246 GT

Last edited by iainuk; 03-09-2016 at 12:45 PM.
iainuk is offline  
post #10 of 24 Old 03-09-2016, 01:43 PM
 
Brian A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Ferrari Life Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorn View Post
... I swear, shopping for a Ferrari is just weird sometimes... a car remains unsold, so let's keep INCREASING the price!?
I'm no expert, but here is my read on what is going on:

The exotic car market is not a commodity market. Generally speaking, it is very difficult to sell an exotic car because the number of people shopping for them is very small.

Exotic car prices are somewhat related to supply and demand, but you can't increase "demand" for a specific car just by dropping the price a little; you need to wait for an interested buyer, which can be a long wait and they care much less about price than the type of car and it's condition. They have been looking for a long time too.

The thing that happens, that ruins it for we enthusiasts, is when speculators enter the market and buy a particular model car commodity-style taking risk that prices will rise. They have no love for the car. It is amazing how many cars have come on the market these last months. Speculators seem to have demoted their car commodity assets from "hold" to "sell." These speculators will eventually cash out and things will stabilize again.

On the 308 specifically, many of us watched and wondered for many years why they were just so cheap. E-Types, C2s or 911s were produced in much greater numbers yet commanded higher prices. It just didn't make sense. It may be that 308s are finally old enough to be recognized for the wonderful cars that they are.

1983 308 GTS Quattrovalvole
Brian A is offline  
post #11 of 24 Old 03-09-2016, 02:12 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Ferrari Life Posts: 7
I would ponder if the value of older 911s, compared to a 308/328, was higher simply because maintaining one can often be less expensive... ie, the value was higher because the car HELD it's value (due to things like being able to find a replacement part, vs "you can't find this part").

(Not meaning to sound like a heretic, btw. I love F-cars; P-cars aren't my thing.)

I also wonder if 911 prices were simply inflated for weird reasons. My uncle is a huge 911 enthusiast, and can't believe it when he sees a 911 from '72-75 era listing for $190,000 (and he owned one back in 1975) - 50% over the price of a brand-new 911.

The odd thing about the 308 market is that ALL of those cars seem to have doubled in price in the past 6 months - including beaters and fire victims. Sorry - but nothing has happened since this past summer that a generic 2-valve '81 with 87,000 miles is suddenly worth $80,000 instead of $38,000. Someone might pay that - but I won't.
thorn is offline  
post #12 of 24 Old 03-09-2016, 02:39 PM
 
Brian A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Ferrari Life Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorn View Post
... The odd thing about the 308 market is that ALL of those cars seem to have doubled in price in the past 6 months - including beaters and fire victims. Sorry - but nothing has happened since this past summer that a generic 2-valve '81 with 87,000 miles is suddenly worth $80,000 instead of $38,000. Someone might pay that - but I won't.
Yes, it has been abrupt (although the rise has been over the last 3 years; not just 6 months).


It remains to be seen where 308 prices equilibrate over this next decade. Its fun to watch, but more fun to drive.

1983 308 GTS Quattrovalvole
Brian A is offline  
post #13 of 24 Old 03-10-2016, 08:10 AM
 
efg2014's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Ferrari Life Posts: 406
When my F430 was delivered about 18 months ago(Yikes time flies when you are having fun) I had a good chat with the Transport driver. He mentioned back in the early 1990s he went to house to pick up 2 308s. After he loaded the 2 cars, the owner said with a sign of relief "I"m glad they are gone and I only lost $1,000,000". Seems this "owner"/ speculator had amassed 10 or more cars and was left holding the bag.

2006 Ferrari F430 Coupé,
efg2014 is offline  
post #14 of 24 Old 03-12-2016, 07:03 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
intrepid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Saratoga Springs NY
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,004
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by efg2014 View Post
When my F430 was delivered about 18 months ago(Yikes time flies when you are having fun) I had a good chat with the Transport driver. He mentioned back in the early 1990s he went to house to pick up 2 308s. After he loaded the 2 cars, the owner said with a sign of relief "I"m glad they are gone and I only lost $1,000,000". Seems this "owner"/ speculator had amassed 10 or more cars and was left holding the bag.
It is late 1988, a good friend of mine, a (non-franchised) Ferrari dealer in California, acquires for a client a very nice single-headlight 330GT2+2 for $75,000. Mechanicals are fine and client spends $25K to turn it into very close to a concours-quality car (could be done 27 years ago!). It is now 1989, early 1990, and client, who saw another 330GT2+2 sell just under $200K directs him to market the car at $185K. Client rejects an offer of $175K, then of $170K. Weeks go by, no buyer, price reduced to $175K. $150K offer rejected, then $160K offer rejected. Month later price reduced to $160K, $130K offer rejected [this is literally true] and the process continued for months and the wretched car finally sold by furious owner out of desperation for $10,000. more than the original acquisition cost of $75K. Client was out $15K of the $25K cost of cosmetic restoration. Not to mention the strain on the heart.

Seth
575M F1, Maserati Spyder, Cadillac STS-V & CTS
past: 330/365GTC speciale, F355b, 412GT, 400iA, 308GT4 2+2, 330GT 2+2, Porsche 356b Super 90, BMW 1800ti

what do I know? I drive blue Ferraris
intrepid is offline  
post #15 of 24 Old 03-15-2016, 12:11 PM
 
efg2014's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Ferrari Life Posts: 406
Seth,
I suspect there are countless stories of people left holding the bag. When I read about college students, albeit rich college students, racing used 250 GTOs in the 60s I realize how better a time it was to be a Ferrari enthusiast.

2006 Ferrari F430 Coupé,
efg2014 is offline  
post #16 of 24 Old 03-16-2016, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
intrepid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Saratoga Springs NY
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,004
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by efg2014 View Post
Seth,
I suspect there are countless stories of people left holding the bag. When I read about college students, albeit rich college students, racing used 250 GTOs in the 60s I realize how better a time it was to be a Ferrari enthusiast.
I really think not, efg; today is a far, far better time. The number of people able to afford any Ferrari, new or used, in the 60s was a pitiful handful, infinitesmal by comparison with the couple of hundred thousand who actually own one today. For at seven thousand produced each year for a good many years and hundreds a year before that, there are hundreds of thousands on the road today.

Seth
575M F1, Maserati Spyder, Cadillac STS-V & CTS
past: 330/365GTC speciale, F355b, 412GT, 400iA, 308GT4 2+2, 330GT 2+2, Porsche 356b Super 90, BMW 1800ti

what do I know? I drive blue Ferraris
intrepid is offline  
post #17 of 24 Old 03-16-2016, 02:44 PM
Owner
 
champagne612's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: St Louis
Ferrari Life Posts: 10,022
I don't know but feel the party is over when guys start talking about what they have vs driving what they have.

Who cares what a car is worth if it's owned by a guy who won first prize in feather dusting.

Bought an FF today - guy drove it 1500 miles in 3 years.
champagne612 is offline  
post #18 of 24 Old 03-16-2016, 09:53 PM
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne612 View Post
I don't know but feel the party is over when guys start talking about what they have vs driving what they have.

Who cares what a car is worth if it's owned by a guy who won first prize in feather dusting.

Bought an FF today - guy drove it 1500 miles in 3 years.
Congrats ! Finally your long awaited 612 replacement....kind of..

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
post #19 of 24 Old 03-17-2016, 04:56 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
intrepid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Saratoga Springs NY
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,004
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne612 View Post
I don't know but feel the party is over when guys start talking about what they have vs driving what they have.

Who cares what a car is worth if it's owned by a guy who won first prize in feather dusting.

Bought an FF today - guy drove it 1500 miles in 3 years.
amen!

Seth
575M F1, Maserati Spyder, Cadillac STS-V & CTS
past: 330/365GTC speciale, F355b, 412GT, 400iA, 308GT4 2+2, 330GT 2+2, Porsche 356b Super 90, BMW 1800ti

what do I know? I drive blue Ferraris
intrepid is offline  
post #20 of 24 Old 03-17-2016, 05:26 AM
Owner
 
champagne612's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: St Louis
Ferrari Life Posts: 10,022
Quote:
Originally Posted by 212Export View Post
Congrats ! Finally your long awaited 612 replacement....kind of..
Thanks - you hit the nail on the head.

While the color is a little challenging for the work week on the weekend it's perfect.

Plan to drive this to 100,000 miles at 4,000 mile per year that's 25 years of pure enjoyment.
champagne612 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
Copyright 2012 ONE Media, Inc.
FerrariLife is independently run with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA
Ferrari for Sale | Maserati for Sale