Cambelts - WHY CANT THEY DEVELOP A BELT WHICH WILL LAST 10 Y - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 24 Old 09-25-2005, 02:03 AM Thread Starter
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Cambelts - WHY CANT THEY DEVELOP A BELT WHICH WILL LAST 10 Y

Having funded 4 cambelt changes on 4 different Ferraris in the last 2 1/2 years, one question that keeps coming up is:

WHY CANT THEY DEVELOP A BELT WHICH WILL LAST 10 YEARS ?

or at least a sensor that will tell you when the belt actually is starting to weaken and needs changing.

In at least 3 of my 4 cases the belts that were taken off looked to be in excellent condition (I did not see the belts in the other).

Thoughts ?
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post #2 of 24 Old 10-06-2005, 08:59 AM
 
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Or at least develop an easier method to inspect the belt. My Ferrari manual states the belt requires replacement every 60,000 miles. But then it says the belt should be inspected every 30,000 miles. Well, when you have to drop the engine to check the belt, you'd be crazy not to change it while you are there.
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post #3 of 24 Old 10-07-2005, 11:52 PM Thread Starter
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The person who invents a sensor to measure Ferrari cambelt wear and save on un-needed changes, is going to die a very wealthy man.
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post #4 of 24 Old 10-08-2005, 02:16 AM
 
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interesting point what sort of properties does a cambelt need? I guess it needs strength, and flexibility?
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post #5 of 24 Old 10-08-2005, 02:41 AM Thread Starter
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post #6 of 24 Old 10-11-2005, 09:17 PM
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Well, rubber is rubber no matter what you add in it to strengthen it. I have seen Honda's Nissan's and other imports have their cam belt changed to chains. They run 400, 500 and even 600 bhp with these. My question is if it can be done for an import, how come a reputable machine shop has not thought of producing them to the Ferrari folks.

Pulleys can be changed to accommodate this and a custom shop can also make a chain cover to replace the timing belt cover as well. Water pumps do not need to be changed that often, its just recommended since you have to remove it to do the belt.

Belts in imports last 90k so on a Ferrari 30k
So a chain on an import, aprx 300K on a Ferrari 80K - 100K or so !

Seems to me that would be a good investment

~My 2 Cents~

1990 348 TS (87284)

“I build cars for young men that only old men can afford” - Enzo Ferrari
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post #7 of 24 Old 10-12-2005, 01:03 AM Thread Starter
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Very interesting idea. Even if the conversion cost $5k, you would still come out ahead after a few years.

Anyone have any ideas as to why it would not work ?
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post #8 of 24 Old 10-12-2005, 02:44 AM
 
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I don't know about the value of the car, some people like original so they will pay less... but other people will see the benefit so will pay extra.
It will ruin your warranty for sure :-?
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post #9 of 24 Old 10-12-2005, 04:51 AM Thread Starter
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Not a lot of 348s and TR still under warranty. For these models, economically it would make sense.
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post #10 of 24 Old 10-12-2005, 06:37 AM
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I haven't seen any Ferrari dealerships offer warranty on any Ferrari they sell. And even if they did offer warranty, and the belts were done on schedule and it blew up. The cost to the dealership would be enormous. So replacing the belt to a chain (no breaks/stretching/missing tooth) would be a better value for selling the Ferrari, adding reliability to the car as well as remove any doubt that the dealership would have a warranty headache to me would be an advantage to them. These should not be more than a few hundred $$$


http://www.cloyes.com/
http://www.cloyes.com/images/CloyesH...rmCat-2002.pdf

http://tsubakimoto.com/product/auto/

Here is one for less than $200.00, If Roush helped design it, then its really bullet proof !!!
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=4936

1990 348 TS (87284)

“I build cars for young men that only old men can afford” - Enzo Ferrari
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post #11 of 24 Old 10-12-2005, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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It would seem to be feasible. Just surprised no one has put a conversion kit on the market yet. Certainly for the 3x8 and Mondial series cars there were a enough units produced to create a viable market.
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post #12 of 24 Old 10-12-2005, 12:26 PM
 
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Does anyone know why they decided to use a belt instead of a chain? Are there performance issues? Is it too long?
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post #13 of 24 Old 10-12-2005, 09:11 PM Thread Starter
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One of the reasons was noise, belts are quieter than chains. The change was made with the move from the Daytona ot the Boxer. The Dino 246 is also chain driven but the 308 uses belts.
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post #14 of 24 Old 10-13-2006, 07:10 AM
 
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Newbie here and I am thinking of purchasing a used 2001 360 Modena (14.7k miles). I have heard about the need to inspect/change cam belts a lot. The Dealer said this needed to be done every 5k miles and would cost about $5k. Is this time interval correct? What damage would happen if a belt let go while running? I am supprised that there is not a better, long lasting belt out there given the modern high tech materials available today. My M5 has chain drive for the cams.... no problems there. A conversion would be interesting.

Thanks!!!
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post #15 of 24 Old 10-13-2006, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_bock
The Dealer said this needed to be done every 5k miles and would cost about $5k. Is this time interval correct? What damage would happen if a belt let go while running? I am supprised that there is not a better, long lasting belt out there given the modern high tech materials available today. My M5 has chain drive for the cams.... no problems there. A conversion would be interesting.
No, that interval is not correct. It is recommended to be done every 30k miles or every 5 years regardless of mileage. This interval is erring on the side of caution. There is no way of telling exactly how long an individual belt will last. Many variables as far as environment, heat, stress, oil contamination, etc. But they will all last 30k miles so that is the number recommended. The cost of a broken belt could be extremely high due to the fact that the Ferrari engine is an "interference" engine. Meaning that the tolerences are so tight that the piston can strike the valves if the valves are open when the piston comes up.

As for the chain drive, there are a number of problems with a chain. Sure they are strong, but they are also heavy (robbing power), loud (driver inconvenience) and they stretch (affecting valve timing). Every single link is a wear point and has internal friction. The stretch is the biggest problem as this affects valve timing. The belt is ideal, it is lightweight, does not require lubrication, it is smooth and quiet and it doesn't stretch.

Capt. Pete
'79 308 GTS, '82 Jeep CJ7 Jamboree
"Time is what prevents everything from happening all at once."
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post #16 of 24 Old 10-13-2006, 03:37 PM
 
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30k miles/5 yr is something I can swallow. Are there shop manuales available and at a reasonable cost? Is belt replacementment something that a well equiped home garage and a compitant DIY'er can do? I don't mind getting my hands dirty and have pulled engines... rebuilt transmissions, etc..., but not Ferrari in the past.

Thanks for the input!!!!! George B.
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post #17 of 24 Old 10-13-2006, 04:31 PM
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If you have rebuilt transmissions and pulled engines in other cars and have a well-equipped home garage then there is no reason why you can't change the timing belts on a 360. Most of the expense of the job is paying the guy to drop the engine and stuff it back in. Don't know what they cost for the 360 but for the 308 the belts are only $22 each.

Shop manuals are available, you'll have to hunt around to find a good deal on one. Try EBay.

Capt. Pete
'79 308 GTS, '82 Jeep CJ7 Jamboree
"Time is what prevents everything from happening all at once."
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post #18 of 24 Old 10-13-2006, 05:11 PM
 
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Pete04222,
Thanks for the info!!! I am encouraged by what you are saying to start to seriously looking for my dream car... Ahhh, to own a Ferrari!!!
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post #19 of 24 Old 10-13-2006, 05:44 PM
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You are welcome. Glad I could help. Having a Ferrari is a special feeling. When you find the car you feel might be the one and you are ready to buy, get a pre-purchase inspection by an independant dealer before handing over the check.

Capt. Pete
'79 308 GTS, '82 Jeep CJ7 Jamboree
"Time is what prevents everything from happening all at once."
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post #20 of 24 Old 10-14-2006, 01:13 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete04222
If you have rebuilt transmissions and pulled engines in other cars and have a well-equipped home garage then there is no reason why you can't change the timing belts on a 360. Most of the expense of the job is paying the guy to drop the engine and stuff it back in. Don't know what they cost for the 360 but for the 308 the belts are only $22 each.

Shop manuals are available, you'll have to hunt around to find a good deal on one. Try EBay.
Dropping the engine to change the belts on a 360 is not necessary. On a 360 the belts can be accessed via a panel behind the seats.
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