will LdM's sacking and SM's new direction impact the market for Enzo-era cars? - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 56 Old 09-13-2014, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
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will LdM's sacking and SM's new direction impact the market for Enzo-era cars?

Just wondering if the Ferrari events of this week will, over the coming several years, affect market and prices of the lower production Ferraris designed and built prior to the Commendatore's death in 1988.

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post #2 of 56 Old 09-13-2014, 11:23 PM
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I'm not sure why it would. What's your thinking Seth?


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post #3 of 56 Old 09-14-2014, 04:35 AM Thread Starter
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I'm not sure why it would. What's your thinking Seth?


Onno

increased production output vis--vis the far more limited production of all models during Enzo Ferrari's lifetime. Add a possible perception by 'the market' that Ferrari is losing its one-of-a-kind magisterial automobile company status.

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post #4 of 56 Old 09-14-2014, 12:11 PM
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increased production output vis--vis the far more limited production of all models during Enzo Ferrari's lifetime. Add a possible perception by 'the market' that Ferrari is losing its one-of-a-kind magisterial automobile company status.
Seth, I can understand your thinking here. Now that the direct succession of Enzo is gone, under the "new" leadership and a new direction, it would be interesting to see the outcome of the marque. Maybe not in the immediate, but more so in longer term, may have an impact to the Enzo era models. We can only wait and see, post bubble, that is.

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post #5 of 56 Old 09-14-2014, 12:18 PM
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Come to think of it, it may have started already years back under Luca it seems.

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post #6 of 56 Old 09-14-2014, 12:22 PM
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There is another line of thought that says that if the brand itself is devalued by over-production, Ferrari ownership will no longer be so "special", and so demand for all Ferraris will lessen, with a depressing effect on values.

Personally, I don't see there being any discernible effect, in either direction.

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post #7 of 56 Old 09-14-2014, 02:05 PM Thread Starter
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There is another line of thought that says that if the brand itself is devalued by over-production, Ferrari ownership will no longer be so "special", and so demand for all Ferraris will lessen, with a depressing effect on values.

Personally, I don't see there being any discernible effect, in either direction.

I assume that you mean you don't [fore]see any discernible effect in the longer term.

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post #8 of 56 Old 09-14-2014, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by intrepid View Post
Just wondering if the Ferrari events of this week will, over the coming several years, affect market and prices of the lower production Ferraris designed and built prior to the Commendatore's death in 1988.
If they flood the same markets - yes but if they open up new markets demand will actually rise offsetting higher production.

Ferrari buyers are of the age that many can now afford to own a Ferrari they saw from a far as a young man.

512's 308's etc. they keep going up especially the better examples but I don't think it has anything to do with who is in charge but if it helps a man with money justify it that's all it takes.

Cars are bought on emotions especially Ferrari's.
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post #9 of 56 Old 09-14-2014, 07:58 PM
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If they flood the same markets - yes but if they open up new markets demand will actually rise offsetting higher production.

Ferrari buyers are of the age that many can now afford to own a Ferrari they saw from a far as a young man.

512's 308's etc. they keep going up especially the better examples but I don't think it has anything to do with who is in charge but if it helps a man with money justify it that's all it takes.

Cars are bought on emotions especially Ferrari's.
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post #10 of 56 Old 09-14-2014, 11:25 PM
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I assume that you mean you don't [fore]see any discernible effect in the longer term.
I don't think that whatever Marchionne does, even if he makes Ferrari SUVs at the rate of 100,000 a year, will affect the prices of pre-1988 cars. In the unlikely event that it does, however, I would expect other market forces to have greater effect, so it would be unlikely that any effect due to "cheapening the brand" will be separately identifiable.

VW undoubtedly cheapened the Bentley brand by building Continental GTs at the rate of 10,000 a year, but if this had any effect on the values of older Bentleys, it is certainly not discernible: values of all the collectable Bentleys continue to rise, especially for older, rarer and more desirable models, but who is to say whether they would not have risen faster if Bentley production had remained at one or two thousand a year (assuming the company could have survived on that basis)?

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post #11 of 56 Old 09-15-2014, 01:16 AM
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I think you can look at Aston Martin as a model here. They've made more cars in the last ten years they they did in the previous 90 put together. The older sixties cars have not been hurt value wise by this.
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post #12 of 56 Old 09-15-2014, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intrepid View Post
increased production output vis--vis the far more limited production of all models during Enzo Ferrari's lifetime. Add a possible perception by 'the market' that Ferrari is losing its one-of-a-kind magisterial automobile company status.
For me the Enzo-era cars are of a bygone era. They are already some of the most prized cars on the planet, hard to see how to elevate them even higher. In my mind they already have little to do with the modern factory.

The impact on LdM-era cars, however, could be significant.


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post #13 of 56 Old 09-15-2014, 06:32 AM Thread Starter
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......... VW undoubtedly cheapened the Bentley brand by building Continental GTs at the rate of 10,000 a year, but if this had any effect on the values of older Bentleys, it is certainly not discernible: values of all the collectable Bentleys continue to rise, especially for older, rarer and more desirable models, but who is to say whether they would not have risen faster if Bentley production had remained at one or two thousand a year (assuming the company could have survived on that basis)?


John, I believe that here you have seen the gist of my question

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post #14 of 56 Old 09-15-2014, 06:37 AM Thread Starter
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For me the Enzo-era cars are of a bygone era. They are already some of the most prized cars on the planet, hard to see how to elevate them even higher. In my mind they already have little to do with the modern factory. The impact on LdM-era cars, however, could be significant. Onno


Onno, not all Ferraris that I consider 'Enzo-era' cars are of a bygone era, e.g. the first 8 cylinder cars, the flat-12s and the 365GT4 2+2/400/400i/412 series, unless you don't think of these as Enzo-cars.

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post #15 of 56 Old 09-15-2014, 10:29 PM
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Onno, not all Ferraris that I consider 'Enzo-era' cars are of a bygone era, e.g. the first 8 cylinder cars, the flat-12s and the 365GT4 2+2/400/400i/412 series, unless you don't think of these as Enzo-cars.
Well, two points there Seth.

1. The Enzo-era is generally defined as ending with the cars that were designed after FIAT got a majority stake in Ferrari, in 1969. This means that the Daytona and the 246 were the last Enzo-era cars.

2. The cars that you mention I do consider to be from a bygone era. The Boxer was still built with hand-beaten panels. There were no air bags. Carburettors were still in vogue for the first 10 of the FIAT years. Cars were built for people scraping their knuckles on the floor when walking upright.

A massive leap of technology was introduced in the 1990's and this started with the first completely new car designed in the Luca-era: the 456, followed by the 550 and 360 Modena (the F355 was an evolution of the 348, not a new design).

This leap is being recognised more and more, and the Dutch Ferrari Club - for instance - now organises 'young timer' rallies for the Post-Enzo but Pre-Luca cars.

So, to come back to your question. Will Luca's leaving have an impact on Youngtimer Ferraris? The answer to me will still be no. The people that like them already like them. Those cars are too classic for the younger generation that want things like heating, working airconditioning, or MP3 libraries. Let us not forget, if you lusted after a 308 when young, you are pushing 50.... The car is 40 years old next year. So those cars already have the following that they have, I don't think Luca leaving will change it one bit.


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post #16 of 56 Old 09-16-2014, 01:20 AM
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+1.

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post #17 of 56 Old 09-16-2014, 05:56 AM
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While my remarks about Bentleys had a bit of a question mark at the end, the point about Aston Martins is very clear. Even Mercedes, which increased its range exponentially, has seen the value of its classics scaling ever greater heights. Or Vauxhall, one of the most devalued brands of all, but look at the values of 30/98s.

IMO, wherever Ferrari goes from here, it is only the models that are produced under the new regime that will suffer if the brand is devalued - the previous ones will stand or fall on their own merits in terms of desirability and rarity and the vagaries of the marketplace, but their value will neither be enhanced or reduced by what happens at Ferrari in the future.

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post #19 of 56 Old 09-16-2014, 07:39 AM
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To lighten things up a bit here is my .02.

No one of wealth wants what everyone else has.

People want and are willing to pay for exclusivity.

That's the bottom line - but in the car world people need their car serviced and by Bentley Aston Maser Ferrari Mclaren opening up dealerships it opens up new markets.

My wife can go shopping out of town online etc and spend X on a Chanel Hermes etc. and it's fine as their is no service needed behind the sale. But there is a very limited availability as you go into these stores there are maybe 1 of each color or design - heightening the "gotta have it consumer awareness".

But Ferrari's that can not be serviced or repaired as Jim G mentioned Ferrari doesn't produce spares makes the ownership less desirable for the faint of heart.

Older Ferrari's need to be shipped all over the country sometimes even out of the country but with values rising the select group love the journey Ferrari offers to their special clients. No one rolls out the red carpet better which I can only think of one member here who receives that service.

Bottom line is - tell a rich person what they can not have and they will spend anything to satisfy their ego and that is what Ferrari has based their success on.

Ferrari very rarely builds unsold cars and the brands that stock dealers with inventory like Mclaren Bentley Maser depreciate much faster and need leasing programs to support sales. Lamborghini leearned their lesson and the brand has performed much better with improved customer loyalty.

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post #20 of 56 Old 09-16-2014, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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To lighten things up a bit here is my .02.

No one of wealth wants what everyone else has.

People want and are willing to pay for exclusivity.

That's the bottom line - but in the car world people need their car serviced and by Bentley Aston Maser Ferrari Mclaren opening up dealerships it opens up new markets.

My wife can go shopping out of town online etc and spend X on a Chanel Hermes etc. and it's fine as their is no service needed behind the sale. But there is a very limited availability as you go into these stores there are maybe 1 of each color or design - heightening the "gotta have it consumer awareness".

But Ferrari's that can not be serviced or repaired as Jim G mentioned Ferrari doesn't produce spares makes the ownership less desirable for the faint of heart.

Older Ferrari's need to be shipped all over the country sometimes even out of the country but with values rising the select group love the journey Ferrari offers to their special clients. No one rolls out the red carpet better which I can only think of one member here who receives that service.

Bottom line is - tell a rich person what they can not have and they will spend anything to satisfy their ego and that is what Ferrari has based their success on.

Ferrari very rarely builds unsold cars and the brands that stock dealers with inventory like Mclaren Bentley Maser depreciate much faster and need leasing programs to support sales. Lamborghini leearned their lesson and the brand has performed much better with improved customer loyalty.

Doug, there are at least three categories of Ferrari client: 1. the hyper-wealthy who will have whatever it is they wish, regardless of price and cost; 2. the Ferrari new-car buyer, one of those seven thousand (or fewer) each year who buy the new cars or who 'buy' them to flip back to their dealers who then sell hem 'pre-owned' for whatever mark-up the market bears; and 3. the rest of us unwashed who buy older pre-owned cars that have already taken their biggest depreciation hits.


With all respect, your remarks do not address this full picture. But Marchione's decisions and their results will affect and be affected by all three.

Seth
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