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post #1 of 14 Old 02-07-2012, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
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Most expensive Ferrari ever - 20.2m

Ferrari 250 GTO sells for 20.2m - BBC Top Gear

5095GT sold by Talacrest.
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post #2 of 14 Old 02-08-2012, 12:14 AM
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John Collins is doing alright. $75 million of vintage Ferrari sales in 2011, and this is how he starts 2012....

With several GTO's on the market (couple of series 1, one series 2 according to Jim Glickenhaus), I'm thinking this guy overpaid. It's not the best GTO out there, but he paid the highest price ever. If there was no other car for sale, then it would have been a different story.


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post #3 of 14 Old 02-08-2012, 04:01 AM
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Onno, I thought the going range for the private sales of GTOs was north of 30 million US already, and this was just one of those occasions where a dealer/broker was involved to actually confirm what was already known.

If that is true, then is this really a record price? And was the buyer truly overpaying?

If that is false then good to know, but what makes a GTO not the best example at this stage? Racing heritage? Lack of racing? Or pure condition of the car?




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Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
John Collins is doing alright. $75 million of vintage Ferrari sales in 2011, and this is how he starts 2012....

With several GTO's on the market (couple of series 1, one series 2 according to Jim Glickenhaus), I'm thinking this guy overpaid. It's not the best GTO out there, but he paid the highest price ever. If there was no other car for sale, then it would have been a different story.


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post #4 of 14 Old 02-08-2012, 04:16 AM
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they said record price in britain. This is not a world record. Much more has been paid for a gto.



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post #5 of 14 Old 02-08-2012, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brettgagnon View Post
Onno, I thought the going range for the private sales of GTOs was north of 30 million US already, and this was just one of those occasions where a dealer/broker was involved to actually confirm what was already known.

If that is true, then is this really a record price? And was the buyer truly overpaying?

If that is false then good to know, but what makes a GTO not the best example at this stage? Racing heritage? Lack of racing? Or pure condition of the car?
There is a hierarchy of race win significance and what drivers used the car. Le Mans is more important than Nassau Speed Weeks. Multiple FIA wins is better than a single win. SEFAC entry is better than than a private entrant. How damaged/mangled from in period races will weigh into it.

Getting to current times it will matter who performed the restoration. How long ago was it? Have the contemporary owners damaged the car? Are there questionable parts and incidents in the overall provenance of the car?

All of this plays into the calculations.

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post #6 of 14 Old 02-08-2012, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
...5095GT sold by Talacrest.
I don't believe it was sold by Talacrest. It just says he confirmed the sale not that he was involved in it. Although I shouldn't be surprised if he wasn't after some commission anyway.

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they said record price in britain. This is not a world record. Much more has been paid for a gto.
Has it? When? The price quoted is in Sterling not US dollars.

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post #7 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brettgagnon View Post
Onno, I thought the going range for the private sales of GTOs was north of 30 million US already, and this was just one of those occasions where a dealer/broker was involved to actually confirm what was already known.
How do you know that Brett? There are few areas where there is more internet speculation than there is with GTO prices.

It is a matter of public record that the Kroymans collection of 21 cars, which included GTO #4757, was sold for $16 million in 2010. This collection was bought by Tom Price, who sold his own GTO a couple of months earlier for around $20 million.

The GTO Chris Evans bought went for a rumoured $25 million.

Where Ed gets the idea that GTO's have been sold for much more than $30 million before, I am not sure. I can only say I haven't heard of it. But what I do know is that Jim Glickenhaus, who is a person that actually gets offered these cars, mentions much lower prices and is telling us all that the GTO market is actually fairly weak. Well, not weak exactly, but when tells us that there are several for sale at the same time whereas pre-2009 there was almost never one for sale in any given year, it indicates times are changing. Consequently, I think that paying the highest price ever recorded for a GTO of relatively weak racing history, is overpaying.


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post #8 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
How do you know that Brett? There are few areas where there is more internet speculation than there is with GTO prices.

It is a matter of public record that the Kroymans collection of 21 cars, which included GTO #4757, was sold for $16 million in 2010. This collection was bought by Tom Price, who sold his own GTO a couple of months earlier for around $20 million.

The GTO Chris Evans bought went for a rumoured $25 million.

Where Ed gets the idea that GTO's have been sold for much more than $30 million before, I am not sure. I can only say I haven't heard of it. But what I do know is that Jim Glickenhaus, who is a person that actually gets offered these cars, mentions much lower prices and is telling us all that the GTO market is actually fairly weak. Well, not weak exactly, but when tells us that there are several for sale at the same time whereas pre-2009 there was almost never one for sale in any given year, it indicates times are changing. Consequently, I think that paying the highest price ever recorded for a GTO of relatively weak racing history, is overpaying.


Onno
On the "other place" there have been discussions with numbers that sounded like some of the private transaction number were known. And there was a discussion of a specific car being done at $35.

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post #9 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 07:31 AM
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there is no such thing as over paying... there is no magic number for a predetemined ceiling price... as long as there is someone who steps up to buy

basic supply and demand at work... I don't think anyone that has ample resources will step back from a purchase because of asking price alone...

cars are still in the cheap seats, when compared to other collectibles, "rags with paint" still appear to lead in pricing...

phunny... "it's not for sale"... may be the ultimate challange of all time
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post #10 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 07:57 AM
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there is no such thing as over paying...
Tell that to the Japanese man who lost $9 million on a 250GTO. You say he didn't overpay?

You mention supply and demand, that is exactly right. There are several GTO's for sale, apparently. So I think price trends of the last 3 years will not continue. You seem to think that the seller holds all the cards. He does not. It is harder than you think to find a buyer for a car like this. There are plenty of examples of cars in this leage that have not found a buyer for many years. The 330LMB of Leventis for instance. Or the 350 Can Am that didn't find a buyer at the 2009 Maranello auction. Still for sale.


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post #11 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 08:04 AM
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And there was a discussion of a specific car being done at $35.

Jeff
OK doesn't mean that was an actual price, but even if it was then if you don't know what car it was then it either confirms or negates my point, so that is hardly helpful. You see, GTO 1 could be worth $10, maybe 15, million more than GTO 2, all depending on originality and racing history.

So I think it makes more sense to look at cars that were sold that you know the # and price of. In relation to those, 5095GT was not a better car and it was by far the most expensive. Seems pretty pricey to me if other cars are available. Of course, I do not know what the asking prices of those other GTO's are, perhaps everyone is asking $50 million.... If we have another sale then it will perhaps tell us more.


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post #12 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
Tell that to the Japanese man who lost $9 million on a 250GTO. You say he didn't overpay?

You mention supply and demand, that is exactly right. There are several GTO's for sale, apparently. So I think price trends of the last 3 years will not continue. You seem to think that the seller holds all the cards. He does not. It is harder than you think to find a buyer for a car like this. There are plenty of examples of cars in this leage that have not found a buyer for many years. The 330LMB of Leventis for instance. Or the 350 Can Am that didn't find a buyer at the 2009 Maranello auction. Still for sale.


Onno
I would say he didn't do a good job of negotiating, his timing was poor, he was not familiar with his purchase... witness the interim pricing since... he sold when no one wanted to buy... he bought when there was competition ( demand )... if his resouces are sufficient he doesn't care what he sold it for, his desire was gone... ultimately he said " I want to sell"...

what's the asking price of Leventis' 330LMB that he is not getting... maybe we can stir the pot for him... again he is saying "I want to sell" at least he has shown he has a caviat... "I'm not selling at low ball offers " :=)

phunny... "virgins" are a sought after quality that demand highest of premiums in many instances in many things, yet in cars, such as Ferrari,
reputation, no matter how used and abused, circulated, reconstructed from wreckage can demand a greater value...
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post #13 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 10:35 AM
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jonathan, i don't know when. if i remember correctly it was recently. If you are interested, you can contact Bill Noon at symbolic. I was chatting with him when it drove by at the track and he told me it sold for 36m. Don't even remember which chassis #. there were 7 there that day!

if my calculations in my head are correct, 20m sterling is about 31.6m us. If the 36m price is real, obviously it would be higher.

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Originally Posted by jtremlett View Post
I don't believe it was sold by Talacrest. It just says he confirmed the sale not that he was involved in it. Although I shouldn't be surprised if he wasn't after some commission anyway.

Has it? When? The price quoted is in Sterling not US dollars.

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post #14 of 14 Old 02-09-2012, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kennedy View Post
There is race win significance and drivers. Le Mans is more important than Nassau Speed Weeks.

Getting to current times it will matter who performed the restoration. How long ago was it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
GTO #4757, was sold for $16 million in 2010.

The GTO went for a rumoured $25 million.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
You see, GTO 1 could be worth $10, maybe 15, million more than GTO 2,
If history & condition can double the value of the car,
Original is a better deal for bottom end of its market.


This goes against purist logic, @ least at the bottom end of the Ferrari market(cars like mine), but makes perfect sense even beyond the hi end Ferrari market.

Collectors like Ralph Lauren restores his cars to the height of their racing history and/or popularity, not as original.

The 1969 ZL-1 Camaro is as rare a Musclecar as any rare Italian race car.
When ZL-1 #01 was restored in the 80's, it was documented by Hot Rod Magazine.
It was restored to the condition it was as a custom painted race car in the early 70's, with all of it's era-correct modifications necessary for racing.
As people would recognize it.
Not as the strait black Plain Jane it was delivered as.
Nobody ever seen it like that.

Have all 250GTO's accounted for been restored?
Are all GTO's accounted for??

Good thread, I hope I didn't get to far off.
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