Pro's / Con's for buying a racing Ferrari - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 02:06 AM Thread Starter
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Pro's / Con's for buying a racing Ferrari

I'm sure the topic has been discussed already somewhere else in the forum.
Sometimes (in those cold winternights when the brain does not functions properly) the idea of buying a F'car just for the track "touches" my brain. Not a car to actually drive races, but to conquer 2-4 trackdays per year with appropriate material (or better not to touch a track with unappropriate material).
Knowing about the involved costs and knowing that the chance will be rather small to really initiate such a buy, I was wondering what you all think about:

1. Which car (360,430, 458 challenge or GT1,2,3 cars, 333 SP, older F1 car (please don't laugh at me)) ?
2. Pro and Con on different types ?
3. Involved costs for 4 track uses (about 1000km's per year) ?
4. Specific mechanical problems or problem occurences?
5. Any other thoughts ?

Thanks for any reply

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post #2 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 02:42 AM
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One track day is equivalent to several months of road use wear.
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post #3 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 03:24 AM
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Sheehan wrote what I thought was a good article on the considerations for buying a race car. In the article, he listed a series of questions for the prospective guyer to answer that would help determine not just IF a race car was appropriate, but WHICH one.

I'll see if I can find it on his website and post the link.

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post #4 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 03:30 AM Thread Starter
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One track day is equivalent to several months of road use wear.
I know!

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post #5 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 03:31 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Killer58 View Post
Sheehan wrote what I thought was a good article on the considerations for buying a race car. In the article, he listed a series of questions for the prospective guyer to answer that would help determine not just IF a race car was appropriate, but WHICH one.

I'll see if I can find it on his website and post the link.
That would be very nice ! Thanks.

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post #6 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 04:42 AM
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Don't forget tire replacement. "Back when" there was a Comp Daytona that regularly attended club track days at Riverside Raceway (said it was a ways back). He talked of every 2 track days cost a new set of racing tires. At the time the club was doing track weekends every couple of months.

In 2009 the FCA club president had a Scud. He told me that he trailered the car from Houston to Elkhart and back because Pirelli said it was questionable if the road miles and 3 days of track would be more than 1 set of tires could make. These are ostensibly road tires.

Do not to forget to include the possibility $$$ of track excursions and breakage.

Jeff
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post #7 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 05:47 AM Thread Starter
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Don't forget tire replacement. "Back when" there was a Comp Daytona that regularly attended club track days at Riverside Raceway (said it was a ways back). He talked of every 2 track days cost a new set of racing tires. At the time the club was doing track weekends every couple of months.

In 2009 the FCA club president had a Scud. He told me that he trailered the car from Houston to Elkhart and back because Pirelli said it was questionable if the road miles and 3 days of track would be more than 1 set of tires could make. These are ostensibly road tires.

Do not to forget to include the possibility $$$ of track excursions and breakage.

Jeff
Thanks Jeff. Costs must be incredible and the money "invested" is gone. I'm always talking a pause and thinking how much a "classic" or "supercar" must depreciate first just to making the running cost of racing cars even. I guess this is one of the reasons I liked more spending on classic or rare street cars but trying to keep at least some value in it.

Lets assume costs for 5 years of doing that the following way:

The initial costs of a 430 Challenge are USD 100'
Count trailer pull car with it USD 40',
have 4 track days in a year $(3x5) 15',
2 sets of tires per year (1 set per 2 track days)x5years, $20',
5 clutches x $3=$15',
5 times brakes and disks $5'x5= $25'
Service and manual mechanic work: $5 times 5= $25'
unforesean per year $10x5 = $50'
plus every year 1 flight into the bunker $20' times 5 = $ 100'

Total $ 390' Diveded by 5 years and by 4 track events per year caluclates down to roughly $ 20'000 per track day, assuming the car is worthless after 5 years.

Is my calculation correct ? If yes, I would better go out and buy a F40 and keep it, write it off and being surprised after 5 years if its still saleable ?

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post #8 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 06:19 AM
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A lot of it comes down to how well the car was set up and serviced before you bought it and how hard you want to drive it on the track. I've run cars like the 512BBLM for multiple seasons with nothing but basic servicing and seen cars like the 360 use multiple sets of tires, brakes and a couple clutches.

As for the value, that's a personal decision. What kind of experience do you want, nostalgia, ultimate performance or just as many laps as you can afford to turn?
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post #9 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 06:47 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
A lot of it comes down to how well the car was set up and serviced before you bought it and how hard you want to drive it on the track. I've run cars like the 512BBLM for multiple seasons with nothing but basic servicing and seen cars like the 360 use multiple sets of tires, brakes and a couple clutches.

As for the value, that's a personal decision. What kind of experience do you want, nostalgia, ultimate performance or just as many laps as you can afford to turn?
Difficult question, nostalgia sounds nice but when putting a car into the dust will create bigger tears, also nostalgia can be nicely experienced in street cars IMO. So ultimate performance would be probably the more realistic reason to do it. Definitively not the version of the most laps possible.

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post #10 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 212Export View Post
Difficult question, nostalgia sounds nice but when putting a car into the dust will create bigger tears, also nostalgia can be nicely experienced in street cars IMO. So ultimate performance would be probably the more realistic reason to do it. Definitively not the version of the most laps possible.
This is one of my goals - I want something with a cool factor.

I think the best way to go is to buy a challenge car - it's set up for the track and if you start tracking anything else is each event raises the risk of serious injury.
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post #11 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 08:22 AM
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get a track car that is already completely set up... then it's a matter of replacing what is used or breaks

the best deal so far for fun on the track has been getting a road circuit NASCAR COT. The car is completely set up and safe ( built to take a lot if things go wrong ) all that is needed is fuel and tires. The price of entry is very low. ( "lipstick" will take care of cosmetics )The fun factor is off the charts. Most of the time you are the fastest car on the track.

Get a set of track wheels and tires for the F car. Turn down the fun factor a bit to preserve the car and paint and have at it. Getting track wheels and tires is cheaper than using up or abusing good street tires.

Get a 2 car trailer so you can take your track car and F car to the track or you can share expenses and man power with a friend. 2nd most important feature of a trailer is the awning that can be unrolled for shade ( easier than setting up tent /canopy ). One cannot put a price on shade. A generous trailer is also priceless to get all that makes a day / weekend at the track fun. There is more to it than just draging a car to the track.

Or... you can turn your car over to a specialist group that enters or maintains your car... all that is needed is to show up... it makes a lot of sense...no need to buy anything, no storage or anything, no tow vehicle, no clean up...they bring every thing... just write the check and show up.
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post #12 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 08:24 AM
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You may want to think of what is pretty bullit proof. The old Columbo V12 were like that - run hard but hard to break for over revving. In their day the race engines would go a season between rebuilds. Too bad all of thes have become multiples of million $.

Maybe one of the Daytonas converted to Comp specs (is it Rolfs that has been doing these?). Lots of noise and power but still fundamentally vintage. No electrics and fancy sh*t. Hopefully the conversions done since original have made it so the brakes no longer go away. Do bring arms of steel though.

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post #13 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 09:44 AM
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Where are you planning on running or racing it?
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post #14 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 10:40 AM
 
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Sheehan wrote what I thought was a good article on the considerations for buying a race car. In the article, he listed a series of questions for the prospective guyer to answer that would help determine not just IF a race car was appropriate, but WHICH one.

I'll see if I can find it on his website and post the link.
Here is the article from Sheehan...

''When I get requests for Ferrari race cars I always ask: What do you want to do with it? The response is usually a long silence''

Recently, one early-morning caller wanted an "F1 Ferrari." That afternoon, another emailed wanting "a race car," and a later caller wanted either a 246 GTS or a 550. While buying a Ferrari is an inexact science, I start by explaining that all Ferraris are in some way "mission specific."

To the first-time buyer who wanted a Ferrari F1 car, I simply asked "Why?" and followed with a series of questions:

  • "Have you every driven a Formula car of any kind?"
  • "Do you have any racing experience?"
  • "How tall are you and what do you weigh?"
With the response that the client was over six feet tall, on the wrong side of 220 pounds, and had never driven a race car, the answer was self-evident:

"You will not fit, and you're over your head."


Not for the faint of heart (or wallet)



Modern F1 Ferraris are technological marvels, constantly redefining state-of-the-art technology and performance. Owning and operating a used F1 car is not for the faint of talent or wallet, with any V10- or V12-powered F1 cars priced well north of $1 million, and over $2 million for a race-winning Schumacher car.

The top F1 teams have budgets beyond $500 million per year and employ teams of computer wizards in search of an extra tenth of a second. Even at the privateer level, if you don't have Ferrari-speaking mechanics, you're not going to leave the pits.

When you do get on the track, most F1 engines are built to last one two-hour race before being rebuilt and updated, at a cost that would put a 550 Maranello in your garage. As for owning or using an F1 Ferrari in the U.S., there is no racing series or support.

You'd have to sign up for the Ferrari Clienti Corsa program, ship your car off to Italy where the factory has a full program, and fly to Europe to race. Buying an eligible and competitive F1 car and running six races a year will cost at least $2 million. And don't bother to ask about Turbo-era F1 Ferraris, which are much cheaper at $500,000; Ferrari will not allow turbo cars in their series, as the on-off power transition is too drastic. Who wants a neat toy if you can't play with other kids?


I hear "I want a Ferrari race car" daily



I only get a few requests for Ferrari F1 cars each month, while I hear, "I want a Ferrari race car," daily. My answer is always the same question: What do you want to do with it?

The response is usually a long silence on the other end of the phone. I then explain that Ferrari race cars start at as little as $50,000 for a usable 308 track car or a last-decade 348 Challenge car, and go to $15 million plus for a 250 GTO.

As for venues, a 308 track car or a 348 Challenge car will put you on the track in regional Ferrari Club track events and will even get you to the FCA Nationals and Cavallino.

For those with a thicker wallet, a 360 Challenge car will set you back $100,000, while a current-but-used 430 Challenge car leaves little change from $200,000. Any of these will require one's own trailer. Oh, and have a Ferrari mechanic along for problems, as there WILL be problems.

Better yet, contract with a local shop that has its own trucks, trailers, and race mechanics. It is important to note that Ferrari street car mechanics, restoration shop mechanics, and race car mechanics have non-interchangeable skill sets.

A popular rung in the Ferrari race car ladder is cars suitable for relaxed tours like the Mountain Mille or Texas 1000, with entry starting at a 330 GT 2+2 for around $100,000. While not real race cars, to many first-time Ferrari buyers, any car eligible for these events must be a race car in sheep's clothing.

The next step up is the higher-speed, more-intense, more-restrictive entry events like the California Mille or the Colorado Grand. We just sold a gorgeous 250 TR Replica at $395,000 that was accepted for both the California Mille and Colorado Grand. That's about the same value as a very nice 250 Ellena-the cheapest entry to these two events-which require 1950s Ferraris.

Further up the ladder are cars for the Mille Miglia, Monterey Historics, or U.S./European Ferrari Historic Challenge. Look for an alloy-bodied Boano with race history, at about $750,000. Scream up to 512Ms and 250 SWBs at $3 million-plus. Go stratospheric with 250 LMs and GTOs at $5 million-$15 million.


I recommend a driving school program



Before buying a race car of any kind, I recommend a driving school program such as Skip Barber, Bob Bondurant, or the Russell Schools, each of which will provide more track time over a $4,500, three-day weekend than a would-be racer will get dragging a 308 or 348 to every local event for a year, and for far less money.

Driving schools quickly separate race aficionados from the wannabes. If you love searching for the limits of your ability while in a four-wheel drift, you could be a racer. If you head for the bathroom every time you get out of the car, you're a spectator.

These schools use learning-level formula cars that are quicker than almost any Ferrari street car, and infinitely cheaper to fix, as $5,000 will cover almost any crash. For those with a bigger checkbook who want to go to school in a Ferrari, FNA has a 430 driving school at Mont Tremblant, Quebec, that gives you two days of track time for $8,500 and supplies world-class accommodations. Should one have an "off," the cost will probably equal to half a dozen Barber or Bondurant schools.


Test drive the street car of your dreams



For uninformed street car calls, such as the gentleman who couldn't decide between a 246 GTS and a 550, these are two very different cars. The Dino is my favorite of the V6-V8 cars, with gorgeous lines and a V6 that makes every shopping trip seem like a warm-up lap for Sebring, circa 1970.

Alas, this client had never driven any Ferrari, and lived in a chilly town in the upper-Midwest, far from the nearest service center. I arranged for him to test drive a Dino only 400 nautical miles from his home, as he had his own plane.

Test driving a Dino, in December, in Detroit, with the targa top off, quickly exposed the Dino's feeble heater, token defroster, recalcitrant power windows, and long warm-up period. And while it sounds like it's qualifying for Sebring, with 200 hp and at 3,000 pounds, the lady in the BMW next to him at the light left him for dead-and she didn't know she was being raced.

His next stop was a recently serviced and user-friendly 550 in New York. A quick December test drive, with the luxury of a heater and defroster that worked, and more than enough power for rain-soaked roads, will probably make it his first Ferrari.

Bottom line: Far too many first-time Ferrari buyers have a dream based on no real-world experience. Too many fail to relate their dreams to real-world usability of the Ferrari to which they aspire, as well as to their wallets, their climate, and their access to Ferrari service in their area. As for those who dream of starting a racing career in their 40s or 50s in a Ferrari, try a racing school first.

If you want an event car, choose which event you want to do, speak with the organizers, determine what cars will be accepted, and then go shopping. Most important-take time to test-drive the car of your dreams before writing a check. It will help make Ferrari ownership the experience of your dreams, rather than a nightmare.
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post #15 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 10:53 AM
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Is my calculation correct ?
Personally, I think it's too pessimistic.

If you just do some track days then you are not likely to have 20k worth of damage every year by going into the gravel trap. Most track-only cars, at least the older ones, that I see are actually only used in track days, not in racing. I know several people who run these cars (355 Challenge, 360 Challenge, 360 GTC, 458 Challenge) and they all have never had any accident with it. They know their own limitations. The 458 Challenge guy does also race it, though, in the official 458 Challenge Cup, he's very serious about it even though he's relative novice at racing. So far no damage but that is always likely I suppose.

Track days are also quite a bit cheaper than 5k, generally.

The car will not be worthless after 5 years. A 360 challenge, even though 10 years old, will still fetch something like €70k depending on condition.

I know where you are coming from. I have done several track days with my 550 and they are enormous fun. But the limitations of the car start showing very quickly and you also don't want to punish your road car too much. I certainly want to go get my racing license. And after that - I don't know. Sometimes I think a stripped-out 308 would be really cool. My specialist had one that could out-race F40's (yes really). Other times I think you'd be better off with a E46 BMW 325i with a tricked engine, roll cage etc.. A Caterham or something like that could also be fun. And sometimes I think a single seater would be really cool too. Hard to decide.


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post #16 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 10:58 AM
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Regarding the Sheehan article: although Sheehan makes good points, am I the only one who thinks he is being pedantic and sounds like a guy who should retire?


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post #17 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
Regarding the Sheehan article: although Sheehan makes good points, am I the only one who thinks he is being pedantic and sounds like a guy who should retire?


Onno
Haha thats a good one Onno ! No seriously I believe that the guy is old and wise. He's heard and seen enough and reflects from a wise distance looking at all this.
Onno regarding your previous answer, a 360 Challenge after 5 years would be 15 years old, no doubt that remaining value would be an unimportant factor then.
Also track days are calculated $1 to 1.5 per day/weekend. Thats realistic if you go to tracks like Nürburgring, Hochenheim, Dijon, Monza or Paul Ricard. These are the tracks I prefer as they are easy reachable within 3-5 hours, are very securly outlayed and have good accomodation and infrastructure.
The Caterham is a great idea whereas I would be more inclined to drive a Renault formula car which is about in the same priceleague maintenance wise. Thank you very much for your comment.

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post #18 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you all out there for your wonderful thoughts and helping comments. I'm sitting in front of the laptop, the glass next to it is filled with definitively too much Port...but somehow I need to adapt to the idea that a buying any kind of a racing Ferrari is probably not the wisest thing to do !

Mike's report from Sheehan spoke for itself. Probably not the point for me to buy cars but definitively the point to listen...he said it all. No news really for me.
Regarding my cost calculation before, I went thru it with my mechanic who used to service the official Ferrari dealers own challenge team from the mid '90's to the mid '00'. He told me that my figures are not too conservative as I will probably have no hit for 2 years but then 1 bigger one in the third year, calculating easily up to $100'. So a normal (348,355,360.430,458 Challenge is out of question). Coming back to Sheehan's comment any F1 is out of question as well, cost are astronomical even without scratching the dust.
Jeff on the other side opens the door for another thought, shortly, as he mentioned a competition conversion Daytona for track use. But honestly I would come into conflict with myself. Its neither a fish nor a bird..and as somebody who cares really about originality and not wanting to show up with something which is not what it seems to be....not my piece of bred.

Remains as only option some "racing school" in France, where they offer 2 or 3 days Renault Formula 2000 experience very cheap to get some taste what it is all about to drive correct and fast, may try that once before digging further ...if at all.

Many thanks to all of you for those great comments. I believe I will proceed the way I have followed so far, trying to buy the best I can in the types I personally care for and enjoying them the way I have done so far, driving often and long. That made me very happy until today. And now, as money is saved from unknown adventures decision takings I should maybe think for a third.......... Thank you all.

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post #19 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 02:46 PM
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Dear 212Export,

Funny how I never went through that thought process, if I had I probably would not be where I am now.

Can I afford it? Did not give it a second thought.

How much has it cost? Have not kept track.

Return on investment? Monetary - positive. Emotional - incredible.

Let the red mist rule!

Two shots: Road America and New Jersey Motorsports Track.

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post #20 of 48 Old 01-19-2012, 03:37 PM
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Great comment Admiral. Although Mr. Sheehan is completely right based on his personal experience and logical thought, there is indeed an emotional factor that can't be calculated.

Based on the post of being more interested in something impressively fast than vintage, you will certainly need to contract a shop to help support the car. By the time you keep the car serviced and the shop paid for their resources, you're spending a couple or a few thousand dollars a weekend...average. The faster you want to go the more expensive it gets, either due to the complexity of the car or the abuse the machine will endure.
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