Ferrari on VW's Shopping List? - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 55 Old 11-27-2011, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Ferrari on VW's Shopping List?

Is Ferrari On VW's Shopping List?
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post #2 of 55 Old 11-27-2011, 02:16 PM
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If you look closely at a Veyron or an Aventador, you won't see visible signs of VW ownership. The individuality is there.

It just seems kinda weird thinking of Ferrari owned by VW (like Ford in the '60s).

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post #3 of 55 Old 11-27-2011, 02:27 PM
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post #4 of 55 Old 11-27-2011, 02:48 PM
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II would say yes!
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post #5 of 55 Old 11-27-2011, 04:17 PM
 
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II would say yes!
Why!? That would be terrible! I would never want VW having any kind of say in how Ferrari is ran. Look at what they did with Bentley. Sure, their sales are through the roof, but that's part of the problem. Continentals are being way over produced, they are building them like mad men, and IMHO not very well. Ferrari is already starting to have this problem having reached 7000 cars a year. I know that may not sound like much but when you think that only a little over 4000 550s (including special editions) were built over five years that's astronomical.
I for one don't want Ferrari to end up like that.

I think Ed definitely said it best.

Just my .02.

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post #6 of 55 Old 11-27-2011, 04:43 PM
 
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Or to sum all that up:

Ciao Jules

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post #7 of 55 Old 11-27-2011, 06:32 PM
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Why!? That would be terrible! I would never want VW having any kind of say in how Ferrari is ran. Look at what they did with Bentley. Sure, their sales are through the roof, but that's part of the problem. Continentals are being way over produced, they are building them like mad men, and IMHO not very well. Ferrari is already starting to have this problem having reached 7000 cars a year. I know that may not sound like much but when you think that only a little over 4000 550s (including special editions) were built over five years that's astronomical.
I for one don't want Ferrari to end up like that.

I think Ed definitely said it best.

Just my .02.
Ferrari - IMO is already like that.

We are losing our local service center that was supposed to receive a dealership - so I may be bitter

Look at the glut of 430's on the market - owners can't sell their cars.

Dealers don't want them / Banks don't want to loan against them and it is causing Ferrari to slide down a very slippery slope.

The only way Ferrari produces the numbers they want IMO is leasing.

VW understands that business and customer service - both of which Ferrari fails on miserably.

Ferrari needs VW - IMO to sell the amount of cars they are set up to produce.
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post #8 of 55 Old 11-27-2011, 08:43 PM
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Ferrari - IMO is already like that.

We are losing our local service center that was supposed to receive a dealership - so I may be bitter

Look at the glut of 430's on the market - owners can't sell their cars.

Dealers don't want them / Banks don't want to loan against them and it is causing Ferrari to slide down a very slippery slope.

The only way Ferrari produces the numbers they want IMO is leasing.

VW understands that business and customer service - both of which Ferrari fails on miserably.

Ferrari needs VW - IMO to sell the amount of cars they are set up to produce.
Conclusion: Buy the classic Ferrari from the 50's to the 70's. They are the original Ferrari's and so much fun to drive. More maintenance ? Yes, of course but that's manageable. The world will always change and move further and further away from "originality".
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post #9 of 55 Old 11-27-2011, 10:26 PM
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Ferrari represents the majority of Fiat's market value. They simply can not afford to sell even if they wanted to (which they do not).
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post #10 of 55 Old 11-27-2011, 10:51 PM
 
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Ferrari represents the majority of Fiat's market value. They simply can not afford to sell even if they wanted to (which they do not).
+1 I totally agree

There was word that VW wanted to buy Alfa, Sergio Marchionne confirmed this, that he had been approached by VW who had inquired if Fiat would sell Alfa Romeo. He said Alfa was not for sale.

''Alfa in Volkswagen's hands would not be Alfa,'' he said, claiming that VW's platform strategy could neuter the Italian brand's DNA.

So I don't think Fiat would sell Ferrari if they wouldn't sell Alfa to VW. It wouldn't make sense to do so.

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post #11 of 55 Old 11-27-2011, 11:46 PM
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+1 I totally agree

There was word that VW wanted to buy Alfa, Sergio Marchionne confirmed this, that he had been approached by VW who had inquired if Fiat would sell Alfa Romeo. He said Alfa was not for sale.

''Alfa in Volkswagen's hands would not be Alfa,'' he said, claiming that VW's platform strategy could neuter the Italian brand's DNA.

So I don't think Fiat would sell Ferrari if they wouldn't sell Alfa to VW. It wouldn't make sense to do so.
Agree. But regarding the Alfa DNA mentioned by you, how come GM engines found their way into Alfa's.....???
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post #12 of 55 Old 11-28-2011, 01:32 AM
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Ferrari represents the majority of Fiat's market value. They simply can not afford to sell even if they wanted to (which they do not).
Merger time? VW puts up cash plus a stock swap for Fiat's entire auto business.

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post #13 of 55 Old 11-28-2011, 02:01 AM
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If you look closely at a Veyron or an Aventador, you won't see visible signs of VW ownership. The individuality is there.
Back in 2007 I saw my first Veyron in the flesh in Silverstone. As I peered into the engine one of the first things I noticed was a VW sign. It was on some small plastic component, but clearly visible. If I had spent Veyron money on a car I don't think I'd want to see a VW badge anywhere...

Sorry, back to the thread topic now...

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post #14 of 55 Old 11-28-2011, 04:42 AM
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Merger time? VW puts up cash plus a stock swap for Fiat's entire auto business.
Fiat has been wanting to go public for some time.

IMO it's due this spring to happen - VW has the cash not sure how Fiat stops it even if they "say" they don't want to.

It's a cash out / cash in scenario.
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post #15 of 55 Old 11-28-2011, 04:44 AM
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Back in 2007 I saw my first Veyron in the flesh in Silverstone. As I peered into the engine one of the first things I noticed was a VW sign. It was on some small plastic component, but clearly visible. If I had spent Veyron money on a car I don't think I'd want to see a VW badge anywhere...

Sorry, back to the thread topic now...
Well how about a BMW Series with a wrap that states Rolls Royce?

This is the way it is - the few left will comply ... it's a bean counters world.
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post #16 of 55 Old 11-28-2011, 04:49 AM
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Conclusion: Buy the classic Ferrari from the 50's to the 70's. They are the original Ferrari's and so much fun to drive. More maintenance ? Yes, of course but that's manageable. The world will always change and move further and further away from "originality".
You are spot on!

They may be more to maintain but the near zero depreciation makes up for it.

Old Saying - lead follow or get out.

In the car world this holds true ... tick tock
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post #17 of 55 Old 11-28-2011, 04:55 AM
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Ferrari represents the majority of Fiat's market value. They simply can not afford to sell even if they wanted to (which they do not).
Interesting article - I don't think there is a choice. Winning on Sunday and selling on Monday is over.

Ferrari brand is among the most exclusive and revered in the world, but how much is it worth? Bloomberg reports that Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne feels the Prancing Horse is worth more than 5 billion euros, or $7.3 billion in U.S. dollars. That’s a big chunk of change for an automaker that cleared only $430 million in 2010 on sales of $2.73 billion, and the total represents 63 percent of the entire Fiat group’s estimated worth of $11.4 billion.
The reason for Marchionne’s high valuation of the Italian exotic car maker is its “sacred brand” status. Like an NFL team that sells for $1 billion only to average $20 million in profits per year, Ferrari is so highly regarded that it could sell for well beyond its cash-generation capabilities would indicate. If Ferrari were valued at $7.3 billion, that would be 17 times its annual earnings. Luxury brands average about 12.7 times annual earnings.
Marchionne has every reason to value his prized property as high as possible, but analysts and banks don’t seem to agree with the CEO’s assessment. Estimates are that Ferrari is worth about $4.3 billion. But at the same time, banks appear very eager for Fiat to issue an IPO for Ferrari, which could be an indication that there is serious money to be made.
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post #18 of 55 Old 11-28-2011, 05:15 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Barry View Post
Back in 2007 I saw my first Veyron in the flesh in Silverstone. As I peered into the engine one of the first things I noticed was a VW sign. It was on some small plastic component, but clearly visible. If I had spent Veyron money on a car I don't think I'd want to see a VW badge anywhere...

Sorry, back to the thread topic now...
......not to mention the FORD logo stamped all over the ABS relays on the F355.
Small volume manufacturers need the big volume producers whether they like it or not.
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post #19 of 55 Old 11-28-2011, 08:10 AM
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Interesting article - I don't think there is a choice. Winning on Sunday and selling on Monday is over.

Ferrari brand is among the most exclusive and revered in the world, but how much is it worth? Bloomberg reports that Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne feels the Prancing Horse is worth more than 5 billion euros, or $7.3 billion in U.S. dollars. That’s a big chunk of change for an automaker that cleared only $430 million in 2010 on sales of $2.73 billion, and the total represents 63 percent of the entire Fiat group’s estimated worth of $11.4 billion.
The reason for Marchionne’s high valuation of the Italian exotic car maker is its “sacred brand” status. Like an NFL team that sells for $1 billion only to average $20 million in profits per year, Ferrari is so highly regarded that it could sell for well beyond its cash-generation capabilities would indicate. If Ferrari were valued at $7.3 billion, that would be 17 times its annual earnings. Luxury brands average about 12.7 times annual earnings.
Marchionne has every reason to value his prized property as high as possible, but analysts and banks don’t seem to agree with the CEO’s assessment. Estimates are that Ferrari is worth about $4.3 billion. But at the same time, banks appear very eager for Fiat to issue an IPO for Ferrari, which could be an indication that there is serious money to be made.
Agree. The name Ferrari is worth 80% of the deal alone. Luxury brands are maybe around 13 P/E in these depressed times, but around 20 - 30 in happy stock market times. I think it would be a bad chosen moment by Fiat to sell Ferrari in these depressed (investors perspective) times. If Ferrari would be sold in high fly times it could produce a 25 P/E sell prices = 10-12 Bio. By the way, it would not be the first time Piech is overpaying for a luxury brand !

But the real problem seems to be somewere else. It was noticable how much problems the bigger italian bank have these days to get better capitalized. They are in strong need to "shorten" their balance sheets. Maybe they are trying to force Fiat into this "creative thinking" of selling the Ferrari name.

After all, I personally believe that Ferrari will stay with Fiat or Fiat will sell only a part of their Ferrari shares to Kuwait, Quatar or Saudi interested parties (parties which have the cash and a pretty quiet). Just my 2 cents.
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post #20 of 55 Old 11-28-2011, 08:28 AM
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Agree. The name Ferrari is worth 80% of the deal alone. Luxury brands are maybe around 13 P/E in these depressed times, but around 20 - 30 in happy stock market times. I think it would be a bad chosen moment by Fiat to sell Ferrari in these depressed (investors perspective) times. If Ferrari would be sold in high fly times it could produce a 25 P/E sell prices = 10-12 Bio. By the way, it would not be the first time Piech is overpaying for a luxury brand !

But the real problem seems to be somewere else. It was noticable how much problems the bigger italian bank have these days to get better capitalized. They are in strong need to "shorten" their balance sheets. Maybe they are trying to force Fiat into this "creative thinking" of selling the Ferrari name.

After all, I personally believe that Ferrari will stay with Fiat or Fiat will sell only a part of their Ferrari shares to Kuwait, Quatar or Saudi interested parties (parties which have the cash and a pretty quiet). Just my 2 cents.
Looking from the outside in - Ferrari is a mess and earnings flat out suck.

Fiat's debut in the US was horrific - they fired the top brass last week.

Fiat Marketer in North America Departs - WSJ.com

If my return was equal in percentage to Fiat I would be having cash calls as would almost any other business I am familiar with.

Saudi money while quiet is non recourse money. They aren't going to sign anything further than what they give that day.

Interesting about the Italian Banks - my guess is they are all playing hide the weenie - numbers are all over the place and the fact that Pinafarina went down speaks volumes.

Italy can not afford to play games - hide the weenie cook the books give us a high speed rail contract ... all falling on deaf ears and I would bet things are a lot worse than they appear.

Too many mouths to feed under the umbrella - VW would rip it to profitability.

Last note - these times may be the best for Ferrari ... they can get out now and rebuild.

P/E ... may be single digits before they see double digits - regardless game clock is running out.

Last edited by champagne612; 11-28-2011 at 12:49 PM.
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