F1gshifting problem after dealer service - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 16 Old 03-01-2011, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
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F1gshifting problem after dealer service

My 360 F1 wouldn't start and after $11,648.00 ,including new ECU (s) and a full fluid change and a replacement F1 fluid resevoir, the car started occasionally selecting neutral when shifting up or down.

It has only happened about six times but still very worrisome. Especially after paying 11600.
Ferrari of Atlanta did service and suggested possible air bubble in F1 system.
They specifically checked the shifting force/time and said it was perfect.
does anyone have a diagnoses or possible solution ?
Any suggestions appreciated
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post #2 of 16 Old 03-04-2011, 06:42 AM
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All Ferrari parts & service are warranted for one year, when done by an authorized dealer.

Keep taking it back until your satisfied with the results.

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post #3 of 16 Old 03-04-2011, 07:26 AM
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agreed, take it back until it's right. and don't let them try to charge you for a "new" problem. these kind of posts just make me happy i live near a good independent like our sponsor here, Competizione. That would NEVER happen at their shop. period.



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post #4 of 16 Old 03-04-2011, 10:43 AM
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Sounds like a worn clutch

It's obviously not possible to diagnose problems accurately over the internet. That being said, an F1 dropping into neutral upon normal shift request is the classic first symptom of a worn out clutch. In that case, the frequency of selecting neutral continues to increase until a new clutch is properly fitted and adjusted.

Unless that symptom was present and communicated to FoA when you left it with them, there would be no reason to replace (or even check) the clutch. From what you've said, it could be simply an unfortunate coincidence that you may now be in need of a new clutch. Incidentally, I don't live in the Atlanta area but I've read multiple accounts of good service from FoA.

If it turns out to be a worn out F1 clutch, it should really be installed and adjusted by a factory trained and experienced technician using OEM computer tools and specifications. Any other situation is asking for trouble. I'm not suggesting it should be done at FoA (I'm sure there are competent independents in your area), but you will be much better off with someone who is properly trained, adequately equipped and has done it before.

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post #5 of 16 Old 03-04-2011, 11:56 AM
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Check the shifter bushing first or linkage before dealer sells you on a new clutch. Work it front to back.

One thing that, as you suggest after a 'qualified' work done, is that something new happens is 'did the mech do something while in there?'. I suggest he changed some parameters while adjusting, which as I uderstand F1 adjustments, can be done. Engagement etc. are adjustable.

however, on a side note: F1's do go through clutches much quicker.....look there too.

I've heard a SD3 tester can read the current wear, and of course would have been required when adjusting the clutch and brakes etc.

but I'm an internet fool on the more modern cars...get it to a qualified mech and ask lots of questions...
In my biz the 99% solution is, if it worked before and not now the environment changed by 'someone' in between. I suspect not all was set back to the parameters you had before taking to the shop.

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Last edited by Granucci; 03-04-2011 at 12:10 PM.
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post #6 of 16 Old 03-04-2011, 12:29 PM
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Sounds like the clutch is at the end of it's life span and perhaps they didn't catch that during the service when the SD3 was hooked up.

How has the car been driving aside from dropping into neutral? Any signs of excessive clutch slippage?
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post #7 of 16 Old 03-04-2011, 12:33 PM
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That really sucks. I am a skeptic and I do not trust dealers' services just because they are official (based on past experiences).

Saying that, I would not own these cars unless I have a trusted shop and mechanics to seek for help. Good luck with resolving the problem so that you can enjoy your car. w/ smiles Jimmy
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post #8 of 16 Old 03-04-2011, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granucci View Post
Check the shifter bushing first or linkage before dealer sells you on a new clutch. Work it front to back.
Shifter bushing & linkage problems apply only to the manual system, not the F1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granucci View Post
.I suggest he changed some parameters while adjusting, which as I understand F1 adjustments, can be done. Engagement etc. are adjustable.
True -- but if difficulty starting the engine was the original problem as stated by the OP, the F1 system may not have been touched at all. Perhaps a careful look at the invoice and a chat with the technician would reveal if the F1 system was accessed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granucci View Post
.however, on a side note: F1's do go through clutches much quicker.....look there too.
360 Manual and F1 clutches actually have the same life expectancy -- either can be abused into premature failure and both can be driven properly to the same very high mileage. In both cases, driver technique is the main factor in clutch life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granucci View Post
I've heard a SD3 tester can read the current wear, and of course would have been required when adjusting the clutch and brakes etc.
True but the accuracy of that readout is limited unless it's done using all initial settings (e.g., PIS) from original installation of the clutch from new. That usually means by the same SDX computer in the same shop where the F1 clutch was installed new. Even the technician taking the readings can make a significant difference. The system can detect when the clutch is at the end but the percentage of wear figures we often see are approximations at best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granucci View Post
.get it to a qualified mech and ask lots of questions...
Amen brother!

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post #9 of 16 Old 03-04-2011, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camdon53 View Post
Shifter bushing & linkage problems apply only to the manual system, not the F1.
OH, see, learn something every day.

Quote:
True -- but if difficulty starting the engine was the original problem as stated by the OP, the F1 system may not have been touched at all. Perhaps a careful look at the invoice and a chat with the technician would reveal if the F1 system was accessed.
he did say mech did a replacement F1 fluid resevoir, so, I would assume he needed to do the SD adjustment and such...

Quote:
360 Manual and F1 clutches actually have the same life expectancy -- either can be abused into premature failure and both can be driven properly to the same very high mileage. In both cases, driver technique is the main factor in clutch life.
Yup, same clutch and all. As a side note, I believe F1 clutches seem to experience less life expentancy from what I've gotten second hand. Perhaps it's just the way it's used: reverse and up hills, etc. seem to wear faster from my limited reading. Then again only driven F1 never owned one, which speaks a lot for my 2cents

Quote:
True but the accuracy of that readout is limited unless it's done using all initial settings (e.g., PIS) from original installation of the clutch from new. That usually means by the same SDX computer in the same shop where the F1 clutch was installed new. Even the technician taking the readings can make a significant difference. The system can detect when the clutch is at the end but the percentage of wear figures we often see are approximations at best.
I should have elaborated. That is what I understand also. The figures can be reset and only are of value if one kept the records personally and knew who was involved in the system.

Quote:
Amen brother!
I probably should have just stated my last line and kept out of what I don't know

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post #10 of 16 Old 03-07-2011, 08:34 AM
 
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Gut diagnosis based on complaint:

throwout bearing and flange are not working correctly (tb seals are shot and/or tb is sticking on flange, clutch is now worn out from poor engage/disengagement)

They attacked the wrong end of the problem. Obtain permission to get it looked at by (and payment sent to) someone who knows the systems.

Just throwing a clutch at it will not help. You'll be back again in a week.

Checking PIS won't give good numbers if the clutch is not moving correctly.

Last edited by T.C.F.B.; 03-07-2011 at 08:40 AM.
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post #11 of 16 Old 03-25-2011, 08:47 PM
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Tehre are two typical reasons that cause such symptoms, especially after disconnecting or replacing the F1 hydraulic power unit components:
1) air gets into the system and, which requires a proper follow-up bleeding procedure after re-connection of all parts and refill with hydraulic fluid. That bleeding procedure is done using an SD3, the lates SD5, or the Leonardo diagnostic/operations system, which have a special bleeding program.
2) lately, several owenrs and mechanics have found out that removing gear position sensors, cleaning and installing those sensors back eliminates the problem.
3) if your F1 pump is priming for a longer time than before and these symptoms occur after 5-10 min of driving (when the hydraulic system heats up), then it is the F1 hydraulic pump motor that is failing. Next will be a blown F1 relay and the corresponding fuse, etc. Many of us had learned this stody the hard way and have personal experience...

Bythe way, you can replace the electric motor in the F1 hydraulic pump very easily.
This electric motor is availble on eBay:
Electric Motor 12V DC for F1 hydraulic pump Ferrari 360 - eBay (item 260736806580 end time Apr-13-11 22:26:16 PDT)

The eBay ad has a video describing how to change the motor, which is very easy (just two screws).
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post #12 of 16 Old 04-21-2011, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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shifting problem

Well here is the update. I was pretty down about the deal and kind of kicking myself for not buying another porsche turbo as I've driven those cars hard for 20 years with no failures other than one (1) altenator.
However the dealer suggested air in the line and the problem went away.

Could have been that I was too easy or shifting too early. I now hold in gear to 3500 before shifting and it has never missed. I suspect that the F1 system pressurizes with rpm and it has been bulletproof since I changed my shifting habits.

Thanks for all the help. The daily driver Ferrari experiment continues at about 12000 miles a year.
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post #13 of 16 Old 04-21-2011, 11:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom mcc View Post
Could have been that I was too easy or shifting too early. I now hold in gear to 3500 before shifting and it has never missed. I suspect that the F1 system pressurizes with rpm and it has been bulletproof since I changed my shifting habits.:
I don't think so and I stand by my earlier armchair diagnosis. You might work for a while, but you will have the same (or worse) problem in a short amount of time. Your "new" shifting habits will be speeding up that time by unmeasurable quantities.

The F1 system is pressurized ALL of the time. The buzzing when you open your door (before even putting the key in) in is the F1 pump getting ready.

Tellin' you man. Take it to a specialist before you have a bigger problem and you *really* feel like going back to a Porsche.
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post #14 of 16 Old 04-21-2011, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom mcc View Post
Could have been that I was too easy or shifting too early. I now hold in gear to 3500 before shifting and it has never missed.
common newbie mistake. the car must be shifted at 8500 rpm. that's what thunder used to spec as an "italian tune up".



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post #15 of 16 Old 04-21-2011, 12:40 PM
 
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that's what thunder used to spec as an "italian tune up".
Learned that one from Bill Cosby.
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post #16 of 16 Old 04-22-2011, 10:19 PM
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common issue having trapped air in the system, particularly after a fluid change. I've had several cars looked at by a so called specialist arrive on a truck to me with air lodged in the system usually in the clutch line as it's the furthest point from the pump. Unless the bleed procedure used by the sd2/3 is adhered to properly, then a cycle test performed afterwards this can happen.your shifting habbits won't have any bearing on if it stays in gear or not......
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