Too big? - Ferrari Life
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 47 Old 12-25-2010, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Too big?

Is it just me or have cars, ferrari sports cars in particular, just gotten too big, too heavy, and too complicated?

I got thinking about this question regarding basic transportation......here in the IUS all car must have anti-lock brakes, ODB-II electronics, airbags, starting next year stability control.....the cheapest car you can buy is now $14000. Cars in china and india and the rest of the "3rd" world start at about $4000....because they are just cars that drive.

The same issue seems to be at work at ferrari. Look at a 275 compared to a 599, or a 206 compared to a 458.....the new cars are frikin huge and a whole lot heavier. The new cars are faster but most all the gain is the modern tires and WAY bigger engines to push all the extra weight.

I'm not trying to bash Ferrari, they need to comply with the rules and they are doing the best they can and building really fast cars in the process.....but am I the only one who would like new engines, wheels, brakes, shock bolted to a modern 275ish car? I am really tempted to grab a wrecked 456/550/575 as a donor and see what can be done when there aren't quite so many rules that must be complied with, here in PA and I think most other states a custom build only needs DOT glass, lights, wheels, tires to be eligible for a street registration and that leaves a lot of room to play with specs...............
mk e is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 47 Old 12-25-2010, 05:22 PM
Owner
 
Join Date: May 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,338
mk e,

One of my mottos is that you can't know what "enough" is, until you've had more than enough. I reached your same conclusion when they started putting wipers and washers on headlights. They went way beyond enough.
Killer58 is offline  
post #3 of 47 Old 12-25-2010, 08:33 PM
Owner
 
Italian Lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Far end of the P pond
Ferrari Life Posts: 6,738
Concur. Too big and more and more weight. Even these so called compact cars over here in Japan is quite large compared to mine (See the pic).
Do not wish to sidetrack from the topic, but you may take a look at this new Stratos www.new-stratos.com which shows a promising possibility still. w/ smiles Jimmy
Attached Images
 
Italian Lover is online now  
 
post #4 of 47 Old 12-26-2010, 12:05 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
cribbj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Houston
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,206
Absolutely agree, and these over instrumented cars will become maintenance nightmares in 20 years. Not many independent shops are capable of working on the cars that are already 10 years old now. Imagine what it'll be like when a broken iDrive car turns up in 10 years. Then there'll be the parts availability problems to boot and probably version compatibility issues, etc..

I don't think all these bells & whistles will help the resale value of these cars, either.

But then, my dad said all these same things when electric windows first appeared!

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

Maranello Skunkworks Team Member
cribbj is offline  
post #5 of 47 Old 12-26-2010, 12:47 AM
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
Is it just me or have cars, ferrari sports cars in particular, just gotten too big, too heavy, and too complicated?

I got thinking about this question regarding basic transportation......here in the IUS all car must have anti-lock brakes, ODB-II electronics, airbags, starting next year stability control.....the cheapest car you can buy is now $14000. Cars in china and india and the rest of the "3rd" world start at about $4000....because they are just cars that drive.

The same issue seems to be at work at ferrari. Look at a 275 compared to a 599, or a 206 compared to a 458.....the new cars are frikin huge and a whole lot heavier. The new cars are faster but most all the gain is the modern tires and WAY bigger engines to push all the extra weight.

I'm not trying to bash Ferrari, they need to comply with the rules and they are doing the best they can and building really fast cars in the process.....but am I the only one who would like new engines, wheels, brakes, shock bolted to a modern 275ish car? I am really tempted to grab a wrecked 456/550/575 as a donor and see what can be done when there aren't quite so many rules that must be complied with, here in PA and I think most other states a custom build only needs DOT glass, lights, wheels, tires to be eligible for a street registration and that leaves a lot of room to play with specs...............
mk e: agree totally. You may should get a F40. It combines what you ask for and seems to be a piece of value if I'm not wrong.
212Export is offline  
post #6 of 47 Old 12-26-2010, 03:16 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer58 View Post
mk e,

One of my mottos is that you can't know what "enough" is, until you've had more than enough. I reached your same conclusion when they started putting wipers and washers on headlights. They went way beyond enough.
Yeah, I noticed the new 458 challegne is air conditioned...heaven forbid anyone should have to spend 30 minutes racing in a non air conditioned race car.........
mk e is offline  
post #7 of 47 Old 12-26-2010, 02:50 PM
Owner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: War Eagle Arkansas
Ferrari Life Posts: 178
Once again, we the people have allowed others to usurp our rights. Those people truly have no power, in our American form of Government, unless we give it up to them. But everyone is so brainwashed, most now believe all the rules are really for our own good.

Were so afraid more than a farts worth of excessive emissions will burn the planet to a cinder, that we allowed them to micromanage our engines from -30F startups to foot to the floor acceleration in 120F heat. Were so afraid anyone will hurt themselves, weve allowed them to encapsulate us in safety cages we could almost drive off a 10 story building and walk away.

And as odd as it is, its America, land of the free, home of the brave, leading the world in that direction. The only reason Ferrari, and all the other of the worlds car makers are selling it, is because we keep buying it. And buyers always demand more stuff crammed into our cars.
Artvonne is offline  
post #8 of 47 Old 12-31-2010, 10:19 AM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
I think you guys all hit it on the head... the beginning of the end was marked in 1974 when the gov't started designing cars in order to save the people from themselves. It's big business now (for the gov't), and they have to keep all of their employees working, so it perpetuates indefinitely.

One really great point though is that we have absolutely tremendous engines available dirt cheap nowadays. This is truly the hey day for engine swaps.

A Chevy LS7 fits in an E36 BMW... Of course, a newer BMW inline-6, like out of an E46 M3, would fit in as well.

If you were to swap a modern Mercedes V8 (not even an AMG V8 necessarily) into even a 10 or 15 year old MB, you'd have an absolute rocket ship.

The good aspect of the current laws is that they basically let you swap whatever you want so long as the engine that is being used is newer than the chassis it's going in.
bretm is offline  
post #9 of 47 Old 12-31-2010, 11:03 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by bretm View Post
One really great point though is that we have absolutely tremendous engines available dirt cheap nowadays. This is truly the hey day for engine swaps.

I'd like to do a 308/328 engine, trans and maybe suspension into a fiat x1/9. I think that would make a really nice sports car. The 500ci Caddilac eng/tran/suspension I tried years ago made a pretty bad sports car.....live and learn

That's a little different point though.....I was thinking about new cars and how nice it would be to have a nice modern body/chassis for some of these wonderful modern engines. A couple weeks ago I was thinking of doing something with a 400 parts but those are really 60s parts (and I'm NOT building another 4V 400 engine!) so now I'm thinking a 275ish CF tub/body to hold something more modern 456/55/575 or so......and I'd bet once the molds are made I could sell as many as I choose to make because new factory cars are nice but too frickin big.
mk e is offline  
post #10 of 47 Old 01-01-2011, 07:22 AM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
...That's a little different point though.....I was thinking about new cars and how nice it would be to have a nice modern body/chassis for some of these wonderful modern engines. A couple weeks ago I was thinking of doing something with a 400 parts but those are really 60s parts (and I'm NOT building another 4V 400 engine!) so now I'm thinking a 275ish CF tub/body to hold something more modern 456/55/575 or so......and I'd bet once the molds are made I could sell as many as I choose to make because new factory cars are nice but too frickin big.
I was kicking around the same idea, albeit in different form, for quite awhile. I need a bigger garage first though.

Westfield Lotus 11 replica, reinforce the chassis/body and swap in a Miata or S2000 drivetrain. The goal would be to build a fun sports car that is also (very) fuel efficient. I've been keeping my eyes open for a cheap Westfield, but haven't come across one yet. I haven't been looking too hard though due to the garage situation.

The other idea would be to start with an MGB Coupe. But, they're a lot heavier and one of my buddies has one with a Rover V8 swapped in and he deals with constant headaches.
bretm is offline  
post #11 of 47 Old 01-01-2011, 08:54 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by bretm View Post
The other idea would be to start with an MGB Coupe. But, they're a lot heavier and one of my buddies has one with a Rover V8 swapped in and he deals with constant headaches.
I did a chevy 2.8 V6 with a 5spd into a midget, that is a pretty good set-up. They also have a 3.1 and 3.4 I think with the same 60 degree V block. Tight though....I moved the foot wells a bit to get it in the way I wanted.

Dealing with constant headaches is generally means the job wasn't done right to begin with or the car need general sorting that old cars need to be right.

I'm getting funny in my old age about swaps.....I'm liking brands to match these days. Rover V8 in an MG or Ferrari engine in a fiat fall in the OK catagory (and keep you in street modified class for SCCA stuff).
mk e is offline  
post #12 of 47 Old 01-01-2011, 06:16 PM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
...Dealing with constant headaches is generally means the job wasn't done right to begin with or the car need general sorting that old cars need to be right.

I'm getting funny in my old age about swaps.....I'm liking brands to match these days. Rover V8 in an MG or Ferrari engine in a fiat fall in the OK catagory (and keep you in street modified class for SCCA stuff).
You hit it on the head in regards to dealing with headaches. My buddy bought the MGB with the V8 in it already; the previous owner only did a half-way decent job with the swap. The car really needs to be pulled off the road for 6 months or so and gone through, but he's been using it as his daily driver for the past 20 years - which is insane, but awesome - so that's not an option.

Ferrari engine in a Fiat... sounds like one of us needs to swap a 308 engine into a 124 Spider. I've got an extra block, but it needs a lot of machining to work again. I think a set of used QV heads is on ebay for around $950...
bretm is offline  
post #13 of 47 Old 01-02-2011, 01:01 AM
Administrator
Owner
Elite Member
 
Boxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK & Texas
Ferrari Life Posts: 15,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
Is it just me or have cars, ferrari sports cars in particular, just gotten too big, too heavy, and too complicated?
........
Could not agree more. While the growth was gradual for the 70s-90s, it has really jumped in the last decade. Just compare a 550 to the 599. The 550 looks small in comparison. I remember parking the Daytona next to a 430 and being shocked at how small it looked and how much narrow the track was.
Boxer is offline  
post #14 of 47 Old 01-02-2011, 05:06 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by bretm View Post
Ferrari engine in a Fiat... sounds like one of us needs to swap a 308 engine into a 124 Spider. I've got an extra block, but it needs a lot of machining to work again. I think a set of used QV heads is on ebay for around $950...
I think I still know where I can lay my hands on a 360 crank and cylinders and I have a set of oversize intake valves on the shelf.......
mk e is offline  
post #15 of 47 Old 01-02-2011, 05:10 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer View Post
Could not agree more. While the growth was gradual for the 70s-90s, it has really jumped in the last decade. Just compare a 550 to the 599. The 550 looks small in comparison. I remember parking the Daytona next to a 430 and being shocked at how small it looked and how much narrow the track was.
The same a 308 next to a 360.
mk e is offline  
post #16 of 47 Old 01-02-2011, 06:31 AM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
I think I still know where I can lay my hands on a 360 crank and cylinders and I have a set of oversize intake valves on the shelf.......
Did you ever try dropping the 360 crank into the 308's block?

I can't remember if the gent from South Africa is swapping the crank in his engine rebuild or not. I vaguely recall you guys buying some parts together and splitting the lots. I thought he was going to use a 360 crank though.
bretm is offline  
post #17 of 47 Old 01-02-2011, 08:09 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by bretm View Post
Did you ever try dropping the 360 crank into the 308's block?

I can't remember if the gent from South Africa is swapping the crank in his engine rebuild or not. I vaguely recall you guys buying some parts together and splitting the lots. I thought he was going to use a 360 crank though.
Yeah it was Dave in SA who I was thinking probably still has liners and a crank kicking around and no real plans for as far as I know.

I've never tryied to drop the crank in but I saw a pic once....maybe from Dave, and it fits.....the problem is the flywheel and timing gear I think. The liners will go but you need to bore the block a bit and you need a spacer to top the water jacket seal to reach the block.....and of course you'll need more flow through the heads to fill the bigger cylinders
mk e is offline  
post #18 of 47 Old 01-02-2011, 08:46 AM
Owner
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: N/A
Ferrari Life Posts: 61
My 68' Duetto looks tiny when parked next to the 550. Can't imagine it parked next to a 599 or a 612.
enz898 is offline  
post #19 of 47 Old 01-02-2011, 06:55 PM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
Yeah it was Dave in SA who I was thinking probably still has liners and a crank kicking around and no real plans for as far as I know.

I've never tryied to drop the crank in but I saw a pic once....maybe from Dave, and it fits.....the problem is the flywheel and timing gear I think. The liners will go but you need to bore the block a bit and you need a spacer to top the water jacket seal to reach the block.....and of course you'll need more flow through the heads to fill the bigger cylinders
Hmmm... sounds like it'd be easier to put a smaller pulley on the supercharger (and pray that the head gaskets held).
bretm is offline  
post #20 of 47 Old 01-03-2011, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by bretm View Post
Hmmm... sounds like it'd be easier to put a smaller pulley on the supercharger (and pray that the head gaskets held).
Yes it would.
mk e is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
Copyright 2012 ONE Media, Inc.
FerrariLife is independently run with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA
Ferrari for Sale | Maserati for Sale