Luzzago - Butcher of 330 GT 2+2, 365 2+2 etc - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 231 Old 11-26-2010, 11:13 PM Thread Starter
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Luzzago - Butcher of 330 GT 2+2, 365 2+2 etc

Received this email today.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO RENEW YOUR FERRARI'S COACHWORK STYLE ?


250 SPIDER CALIFORNIA LWB /SWB NEW ASSEMBLY LINE





ARE YOU BORED OR UNSATISFIED OF YOUR FERRARI'S STYLE ?

In the last century, when luxury cars were the preserve of a few lucky had spread the practice of buying chassis from car manufacturers and building with unique or custom coachwork. Thanks to this it was developed the famous Italian style that has marked the history of 20th century Motorsports stylistics.

Another tradition established at the time was to rebody the cars that after some years of activity had lost the initial charm, such a heavy restyling or even complete reconstruction of the body according to the latest fashion . This tradition is not lost.

Although few, still survive today, master craftsmen , expert panel beaters capable of shaping metals and transform a simple sheet of aluminum in a rolling sculpture. From these skilled hands who have inherited the experience of a lifetime can take life the new coachwork for your Ferrari.
  • Delivery time : 20 /24 months
  • Donor cars suggested: Ferrari 250 - Ferrari 330 gt 2+2 - Ferrari 365 gt 2+2
  • Model built : LWB or SWB
  • Payment : 20% +vat in advance, the balance following the work steps
  • Total cost : please ask, the quotation is related to the model and works required
bodywork can be fitted both on the rigid axle or indipendent suspensions chassis:


Ferrari_250_spider_California_RIGID_AXLE_SUSPENSIO N


Ferrari_250_spider_California_INDIPENDENT_AXLE_SUS PENSION

A NEW COACHWORK FRAME BUILT ON YOUR ORIGINAL CHASSIS

ALL NEW BODYPANELS INSIDE

EVERYTHING HANDMADE ,DASHBOARD,FLOORS...

HOODFRAME AND SEATS

GEARBOX TUNNEL, FRONT NOSE

HEADLAMPS RIMS, GRILLE, BONNET...

A STUNNING COACHWORK....

LATEST STEPS....WHAT A BEAUTY ! WINSHIELD FRAME,BUMPERS,AIR INTAKES,HANDLES,MOULDINGS

DASHBOARD AND GAUGES

HEADLAMP , HOOD FRAME, LUGGAGE COMPARTMENT


PER MAGGIORI INFORMAZIONI E PREVENTIVI DETTAGLIATI
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION OR DETAILED QUOTATION
Mob: +39-328-2454909 email: [email protected]


Quite shocked that they are openingly advertising doing conversions.

Comments?

Last edited by Boxer; 11-26-2010 at 11:22 PM.
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post #2 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 03:39 AM
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Agree, yes, shocking ! But before being able to do conversions, some owners need to express their desire to have their original car conversed. They are the individuals without respect for heritage and originality.
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post #3 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 04:02 AM
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I guess what I find surprising is the number of cars under construction.

On the 250 conversion thread it seemed that a good conversion with FIA race papers might bring close to the cost of the conversion but this conversion seems like pissing money away?

Although if you have a car in need of serious help it's most likely going to end up boken up for parts one way of the other and it ends up a driving car this way instead of a VIN lost forever...still is seems like pissing money away.
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post #4 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 05:00 AM
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I personally, wouldn't want to "rebody" an authentic Ferrari. It seems sacreligious.

However, I can't help but think that the heart of the practice seems acceptable - Their tag line about coachmakers building new bodies was indeed an integral part of early automotive practice. Our very own Fisher Body, that built many a GM car, evolved from that tradition. And the hot rod 50's era and muscle car era that followed owe their very existence to this practice.

Although, I've restored two vintage Jaguars that had been given up as worthless, I guess if it came down to a choice of losing a car because it wasn't financially viable to restore it, or having it rebodied, I'd choose the latter.

But I agree, on the face of it, it seems offensive.
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post #5 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 07:31 AM
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my favorite car ever-250 california. one of my least favorite ferraris, 365 gt 2+2. If i had the money i would be torn.



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post #6 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 07:46 AM
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Horrible, just horrible.

There are so few good original 2+2's left and still people without any sense want to thin the herd!

Almost worse I find that people who own cars like this almost without fault do not own up to it, and "prance with another bird's feathers" as we say in my country. They want to mislead the public and pretend they swim in a bigger fishpond than they really are. The TdF that participated in the Mille Miglia Tribute is in fact a rebodied 250 GTE, and yet when the owner spoke to me just after the rallye he never once hinted at the fact that it was not original, even though I was asking about the car in detail. He claimed not to remember talking to me. He was interviewed for the Ferrari website, same thing. Then, last month, he has a half-page interview in (I think) Classic & Sportscar, clearly stating "1958 250 GT Tour de France", where he claims to have run the Mille Miglia (not the Tribute, but OK, that could be an error on the magazine's side), and to have raced the car all over Europe. Never once does he mention it is a rebodied car (in the 1980ies, not in period).

1 week before I spoke to that guy, I was at a hotel in France. The owner proudly showed me a picture of a 250GTO in front of his hotel in the 1990ies. "The real thing", he said, because the owner had several classic Ferraris and assured him it was. I looked up the owner (now deceased) and within 10 minutes had discovered a lovely Daytona he had owned, and that he had owned several classic Ferraris, but that DK Engineering built him a fake GTO. Yet he had to claim it was real.

Then there was the guy who was interviewed for a famous YouTube channel about 6 months ago who told the audience that his was a real GTO. The presenter believed him and defended him against purists who said "no way". Turned out it had a V8 or something.

It just goes to show that people just can't help themselves.

And for this vanity, countless lovely old Ferraris that have a right to exist in their own merit are destroyed. Because make no mistake, by far the most of these cars are perfectly salvageable. It is very rare that a replica is built on only a chassis and drivetrain.

The more I see it, the more disgusted I get. And to see a whole factory doing this, my word!!!! Too much to bear.


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post #7 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 11:04 AM
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What can you say....? The "driven aspect" is always the same with human beings...to be what they are not or at least to a lesser extent. That will be the case as long as human beings exist. Actually we should forgive them. I think we have all pretend once or more in our life to be more than we actually have been...isnt' it. Psychiatrics will tell you lots about, its called neurosis.

Last edited by Boxer; 11-27-2010 at 11:13 PM.
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post #8 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 11:29 AM
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good god - and they have the nerve to compare it to Ferrari's practice of sending its chassis to various coachbuilders back in the day.

Unfortunately, my sense is that the pace of the destruction of vintage 2+2s is picking up. It used to be that the discussion about fakes would center around "how far gone does a GTE have to be to be legitimate fake fodder." But now we have seen twice in the last couple of months, very good GTEs being unceremoniously butchered for fakes.

Besides the philosophical issue of why someone would be ok w/ butchering a real Ferrari to make a fake one, the REAL problem I see here is that we are slowly but surely RUNNING OUT OF VINTAGE 2+2s. This is no joke.

At what point does it become a tragedy for the people who are creating the demand for fakes (or are indifferent) for another real vintage Ferrari 2+2 to be turned into a fake? When there are only 100 originals left? 50? 25?

I think we're past the point where we can afford to be indifferent about chopping up real cars into fakes; we're talking about very low production numbers for the get-go. Subtract from that number the attrition thru (1) use/wrecks for over 40 years, and (2) the fake-industry for the last 23 or so years. This leads most educated guesses for surviving cars for each of the early 2+2 models to be in the several hundreds at most.

I used to think that restored cars were immune from the slaughter, but the experiences of the last couple months have shown that to be invalid. So when does it stop?

that Luzzago email is my worst nightmare.

Could you please forward to me?
[email protected]

thank you,
Bryan
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post #9 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 11:52 AM
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When some of these cars sell for less than the engine is worth, or not much more, the chassis really has no value. While it may not seem right to cut them up and re-body them, what else would you do with them? Its quite noble to say it shouldn't be done until your looking at your own options. The only other option is to destroy them and put them out of everyone's misery.
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post #10 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanp View Post
good god - and they have the nerve to compare it to Ferrari's practice of sending its chassis to various coachbuilders back in the day.

that Luzzago email is my worst nightmare.

Could you please forward to me?
[email protected]

thank you,
Bryan
Soooo, what if instead they built the chassis from the ground up and didnt use a Ferrari at all, just salvaged engines?

That wont make anyone happy either because those are true fakes.

It would appear Ferrari could do a better service by building re-bodies themselves, make it official so to speak. Oh that wont work either, people would cry over that as well.

There is nothing that can be done. If a real Ferrari pedigree is based only on its chassis number, and nothing else, then only re-bodies from real Ferrari's will be acceptable. IMHO, it is the pressure from Ferrari toward replicas that started this. No one would have ever started cutting up vintage Ferrari's if they were free to build cars from scratch.
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post #11 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Artvonne View Post
When some of these cars sell for less than the engine is worth, or not much more, the chassis really has no value. While it may not seem right to cut them up and re-body them, what else would you do with them? Its quite noble to say it shouldn't be done until your looking at your own options. The only other option is to destroy them and put them out of everyone's misery.
For me, citing "value" doesn't really cut it as an argument, at least for those who are passionate about the marque. What kind of "value" are you talking about? The value of preserving the dwindling suppy of real vintage Ferraris? I have a hard time putting a price on that. There is a whole website of guys at tomyang.net who restore/maintain "less valuable" 2+2s even where it makes no financial sense for the simple fact that saving an old Ferrari is worth it for more reasons than $$.
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post #12 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 12:20 PM
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It's one thing to build a home for an estranged drivetrain, it's another to cut up a proper car.

I believe that in another couple decades once all these cars are gone and turned into cut cars the same thing will happen as did to the American classics.

They'll become forgotten trinkets of a fad and people will buy them, research the origination of the serial numbers and cut them apart and return them to their original configuration.


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post #13 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Artvonne View Post
Soooo, what if instead they built the chassis from the ground up and didnt use a Ferrari at all, just salvaged engines?

That wont make anyone happy either because those are true fakes.

It would appear Ferrari could do a better service by building re-bodies themselves, make it official so to speak. Oh that wont work either, people would cry over that as well.

There is nothing that can be done. If a real Ferrari pedigree is based only on its chassis number, and nothing else, then only re-bodies from real Ferrari's will be acceptable. IMHO, it is the pressure from Ferrari toward replicas that started this. No one would have ever started cutting up vintage Ferrari's if they were free to build cars from scratch.
A fake "Ferrari" that did not require the destruction of a real Ferrari makes me shake my head, but does not send me into the rage that seeing a bastardized GTE does.

For the last several years, I've been thinking that Ferrari could satisfy a whole lot of people by making a "heritage" series - essentially fakes that are more user-friendly (AC, alternators that don't die, etc.). Of course they would charge an arm and a leg, but not the seven figures one would pay for the real deal. Ferrari could badge the hell out of them, as seems to be their tendency these days and make them different enough that there would be no question as to what is driving up to a cars & coffee.

I agree that Ferrari's jealous guarding of the marque (at the same time they make million from Ferrari lunchboxes, hats and Barbie) has definitely encouraged the cannibalization of vintage 2+2.
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post #14 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 06:11 PM
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For me, citing "value" doesn't really cut it as an argument, at least for those who are passionate about the marque. What kind of "value" are you talking about?
As I said, cars that arent worth much more than the engine all by itself. If you get into a GTE and find the body needs to come off because of corrosion, as we saw in the rusty Daytona on the evil fchat, to do the job right could cost nearly $100K. For a car thats barely worth $50K? And thats just the body restoration, and yet mention the the motor, running gear, suspension, and electrics or interior. Its not economically worth it.

My hat is off to people Like Tom Yang, we need more people like that. But the fact is those kind of people are rare. And the general consensus on the forums is far more against it than for it, when its their money. Truth be told, even in fully restored condition, someone could conceivably cut up Toms car for a re body and justify it economically because its worth it in resale value.

Other than Ferrari rebuilding an original chassis, I dont believe they could build new old cars unless they sold them in kit form. But I could be wrong on that. One thing is certain, some one will. Might be China, but someone will. Ferrari is foolish IMHO, if they do nothing. China could sell some pretty cheap copies if they wanted.
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post #15 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
It's one thing to build a home for an estranged drivetrain, it's another to cut up a proper car.
I think that about sums it up. Well said Josh.
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post #16 of 231 Old 11-27-2010, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Artvonne View Post
For a car thats barely worth $50K? Its not economically worth it.
First off, you clearly have no idea of recent pricing of restored GTE's. Second, just because it is not economically worth it doesn't mean it justifies destroying the car. If YOU don't want to restore it, sell it to someone who does. They are absolutely out there. And third - it costs just as much to create a replica as it does to restore it to its former glory, in fact it is very likely that the replica will be more expensive (if it's any good). But, just as with restoring it, you will NOT recover the costs spent when you sell it on. So there goes your argument - if it is all about economy, then you might as well restore the car. Why don't people? Because they want to pretend they have something which they haven't.


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post #17 of 231 Old 11-28-2010, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Artvonne View Post
Other than Ferrari rebuilding an original chassis, I dont believe they could build new old cars unless they sold them in kit form. But I could be wrong on that. One thing is certain, some one will. Might be China, but someone will. Ferrari is foolish IMHO, if they do nothing. China could sell some pretty cheap copies if they wanted.
I think you're right.....a factory can't just create and sell 50 year old cars with new vin numbers.

A kit is the only way but then you don’t have a Ferrari title and vin which is why the standard answer is to find a Ferrari title and vin and give it a new home. Traditionally the title/vin comes from a crash or total rust job of a car but economic and demand are pushing the viable donors up well into the decent car realm….which brings us to the topic at hand.

I guess the question is will the 2+2 cars get rare enough to drive their prices high enough to save any of them? I suspect so but I also suspect it will be a small number that survive.

When I was hunting for a 400/412 engine I saw whole running cars under $20k and had a couple people talk to me about buying a complete working car and splitting up the parts. A good engine and glass alone would pay back the cost of the entire car in many cases with everything else being profit.

To me this is a sadder end to a car than being turned into a conversion but very few seem to even notice this kind of thing going on…..they just smile when the parts guy says “yes, I have one of those........”.
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post #18 of 231 Old 11-28-2010, 06:41 AM
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All the points discussed clerly show that the relly original cars will get rarer and rarer and suddenly down the time axle even the classic 2+2 Ferraris will get higher price quotes simply because of supply and demand. I hope that this will happen as it provides a welcome gift for all those well respected dyhard enthusiasts. They don't care to not economyzing everything in life but out of love and respect just restore, drive and love their wonderful 2+2 Ferraris. Chapeau !
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post #19 of 231 Old 11-28-2010, 08:46 AM
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First off, you clearly have no idea of recent pricing of restored GTE's. Second, just because it is not economically worth it doesn't mean it justifies destroying the car.
Onno
First off, I wasn't specifically talking of GTE's, but even those have gone up and down like a yo-yo the last few years, so yeah, $50K. If not a GTE then a GT4, whatever.

Second, if you read what I wrote, I said my hat was off to people like Tom Yang, we need more like him.

Actually, I'm just the kind of moron who would save a ratty car thats not economically wise to restore, because I like cars more than seeing them butchered. My other point was that in the larger world, the vast majority of Ferrari owners and enthusiasts dont feel the same way as those of us in this thread feel. Most have no clue of the history, they are simply looking at the bottom line to own what they want.

And the ONLY damned reason people are cutting up these beautiful old cars, is simply because Ferrari is to greedy and bull headed to let people build a replica. So in reality, Ferrari care even less about the old cars than anyone, because they sanction it.

Seriously, someone could just as easily see the economy of cutting up a 250 California to recreate a GTO, if the resulting product were more valuable. IMHO, Ferrari would be wise to to focus on the destruction of real Ferrari's, and leave the true fakes alone for the posuers to fight over. Perhaps Ferrari is going into Asia with the idea to head off replica production before it starts?

Last edited by Artvonne; 11-28-2010 at 08:52 AM.
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post #20 of 231 Old 11-28-2010, 09:25 AM
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All the points discussed clerly show that the relly original cars will get rarer and rarer and suddenly down the time axle even the classic 2+2 Ferraris will get higher price quotes simply because of supply and demand. I hope that this will happen as it provides a welcome gift for all those well respected dyhard enthusiasts. They don't care to not economyzing everything in life but out of love and respect just restore, drive and love their wonderful 2+2 Ferraris. Chapeau !
+1, well said Two-Twelve!

I happen to love the 250 GTE and it makes me sad to see one going into another lesser identity. I would have no problem in fully restoring a GTE for my personal pleasure. I would be more lenient towards butching a 365 2+2 because I don't love it as much as the GTE. I do hope though, that there will be enough enthusiasts who love the 365 2+2 enough to do a full restoration.

On the other hand, plenty of the "donor" models were made so butching a few will probably not be the end of the world. In fact, it will likely advance the desireability as butching helps decreasing the number of existent models.

Like Two-Twelve says, it is not about the money when it comes to restoring a Ferrari or a vintage yacht or a vintage aeroplane. Payback calculations belong to our day to day lives, not to our life style hobbies.

Viva la passione per le nostre belle machine Ferrari e per la nostra brava Scuderia.

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