Kevlar lined clutches? - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 18 Old 11-05-2010, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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Kevlar lined clutches?

My 550 is going to get a new clutch soon, and it appears my choices are either going back with the stock, full faced organic disc, or opting for a Kevlar lined setup from Hi Tech Exotic Racing (whose Kevlar faced clutches are apparently popular with the Lambo crowd.)

Anyone here had experience with these Kevlar clutches from Hi Tech?

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #2 of 18 Old 11-05-2010, 06:15 PM
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they last a lot longer, which is a problem with the lambo clutches. specially with the price of installation. haven't heard that on the 550 but maybe someone more knowledgeable will chime in. what are the price differences?



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post #3 of 18 Old 11-05-2010, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
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The Hi Tech clutch is about 2x the OEM clutch, but they also claim it'll give 2x to 3x the life, is as driveable as the OEM, and may have a softer pedal to boot.

I need some more convincing and would really like to hear from some owners of this clutch.....

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #4 of 18 Old 11-06-2010, 12:18 AM
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How long do you plan on keeping the 550?
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post #5 of 18 Old 11-06-2010, 01:49 AM Thread Starter
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Boxer, I have no plans for selling the car. As I tend to keep interesting cars 10 years and longer, this one may well outlive me . Cars that are just daily drivers, I usually keep 5-7 years.

The claims for the life of this clutch are interesting, but I'm more interested in its driveability and the reduction of the pedal pressure. I found the 550's pedal a bit too heavy for comfort. It's something I could adapt to, but I doubt that my wife would be able to drive it.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #6 of 18 Old 11-06-2010, 06:00 AM
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I ran a kevlar clutch on my 308 for a bit to get the bite to handle the first (Low) boost supercharger and it worked well, no chatter or anything like that.

The High boost engine killed it in very short order and I switched to t tilton 7.25", 3 disc carbon-carbon unit. I have the lightest spring they make which puts the clutch pack at an 850lb-lb torque rating and the pedal is VERY light, think honda civic or lighter....there is zero effort required. The cluthc will chatter a touch and in more on/off than stock but no where near as bad as a metalic or ceramic clutch. I find it very streetable, if a stock clutch is a 10, a multi-dics metalic a 1 the carbon-carbon is a 7-8 I'd say with way less pedal effort which I think makes it a better set-up. The price is steep though at $5k for the clutch pack then figure another $2-3K to make it fit.
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post #7 of 18 Old 11-06-2010, 08:14 AM
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consider the installation cost when weighing the price differential. if the clutch you are looking at costs 2k more than the stock one but you save 2k on a second installation, i think you are ahead of the game time and money wise.



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post #8 of 18 Old 11-06-2010, 11:58 AM
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That's a mighty big IF ya got there Fella...
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post #9 of 18 Old 11-06-2010, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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Mark, that's more in line with what I thought I understood about Kevlar and Carbon/Carbon clutches.

Ed the cost of installation is a consideration, but for me, it's not as important as having a clutch that's enjoyable to use, and isn't an on/off switch, nor gives you cramps in your calves after being in traffic with it.

The import hotrodding community has favored the carbon/carbon over the Kevlar for the last five years or so for the reasons you stated. I think the Kevlar still has a market, but one has to be more careful with it than the carbon/carbon.

Myself, I've not driven either one, but I currently have a six puck, twin disc, metallic lined clutch with lightweight flywheel on a car that is torque challenged off the line, and it's not much fun inching along in traffic, or up hills.

I think a great clutch for a heavy GT like the Maranello could be either the carbon/carbon in an 8.5" twin disc or perhaps the Kevlar in the same size & configuration, with a lighter pressure plate, and a decently heavy steel flywheel. This would give a lighter pedal, and the right material to slip when you want/need to so it's not a "rev, dump & pray" situation every time the light changes, but enough surface area to hold the torque.

Anyone know the required spline configuration?

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #10 of 18 Old 11-06-2010, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cribbj View Post

Ed the cost of installation is a consideration, but for me, it's not as important as having a clutch that's enjoyable to use, and isn't an on/off switch, nor gives you cramps in your calves after being in traffic with it.
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post #11 of 18 Old 11-06-2010, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
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No worries; the L-cars just aren't my cup of tea.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #12 of 18 Old 11-06-2010, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
The import hotrodding community has favored the carbon/carbon over the Kevlar for the last five years or so for the reasons you stated. I think the Kevlar still has a market, but one has to be more careful with it than the carbon/carbon.
My kelar unit was was killed when I pulled out from a stop sign into traffic in 3rd instead of first....the engine didn't much care which gear I started in but the clutch sure did and slipped at 1/2=2/3 throttle from then on. It measured fine when I took it out so it seemed to be a glazing issue, the kevlar just can't stand heat. You have to be very careful bedding them in when they're new too. But as I said, it did work quite well with the engine I spec'd it for.

The carbon is another story all together though. It gets grabby when its hot but it has to be really hot before it's a problem. I pretty much stopped using 1st gear any where but parking lots and used only 3rd and up in the rain (wheel spin was a real issue at 24psi boost) and no hint of a clutch problem. I put about 10k miles on it I guess and it's got very little wear and will be going into onto the V12 as is. It cam with 2 spacers, the small one installed and a thicker one to install to basically double the life......I'm less than 1/4 of the wat through the first space I think.

If your main goal is to reduce pedal presure, multi-disc of some kind is probably the only good option.
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post #13 of 18 Old 11-07-2010, 08:24 AM Thread Starter
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If your main goal is to reduce pedal presure, multi-disc of some kind is probably the only good option.

My current clutch (the six puck metallic) has a conventional slave cylinder, fork, release bearing setup, and to get a lighter pedal I overbored the slave by 1/8" to get about 12% less effort. Or to put it another way, the slave now has a 12% shorter stroke for the same amount of stroke on the master. As well as lightening the pedal, it helped give a little finer control of the engagement which was the main problem. The only dodgy part was ensuring the clutch still engaged/disengaged OK with the shorter stroke of the slave.

Since the Maranello doesn't have a conventional slave cylinder, to do a similar adjustment of its hydraulic system would require sleeving the master cylinder, and I don't know if that's something that's advisable or as easy to do as boring a slave?

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #14 of 18 Old 11-07-2010, 09:53 AM
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Both the Testarossa and (select) 348 had twin disc setups from the factory as does the Maserati Coupe with F1 trans which to my understanding was simply for a lighter pedal (except Maser. obviously) without sacrificing engagement smoothness.

Both of these cars used the same hydraulic, linear T/O bearing with master cylinder setup and have much lighter clutch pedals. Of course neither make as much power and torque but that's not exactly the point here.

Because this hydraulic system uses a more simple design than the master/slave/fork design I don't see it being that tricky to modify the master and get a positive result.

You may need to adjust the clutch pedal stop point though to compensate for the change in fluid quantity being moved.

Perhaps switching out to a twin disc setup AND re-sleeving the master would accomplish the all around improvment being sought.


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post #15 of 18 Old 11-07-2010, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
My current clutch (the six puck metallic) has a conventional slave cylinder, fork, release bearing setup, and to get a lighter pedal I overbored the slave by 1/8" to get about 12% less effort. Or to put it another way, the slave now has a 12% shorter stroke for the same amount of stroke on the master. As well as lightening the pedal, it helped give a little finer control of the engagement which was the main problem. The only dodgy part was ensuring the clutch still engaged/disengaged OK with the shorter stroke of the slave.

Since the Maranello doesn't have a conventional slave cylinder, to do a similar adjustment of its hydraulic system would require sleeving the master cylinder, and I don't know if that's something that's advisable or as easy to do as boring a slave?
The tilton clutch requires a very short to work (about .200"), about 1/2 what the stock 308 had plus the spring is lighter too and as you said makes it WAY easier to modulate. Tilton talks about adding a pedal stop, but I re-did the linkage to use the full pedal throw like stock to gain all the advantages possible.

Probably you would just want to replace to stock master, but you could probably sleeve the stock one to keep a stock look ir you prefer.
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post #16 of 18 Old 11-09-2010, 07:49 AM Thread Starter
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Mark, how long did it take you & Tilton to get a clutch engineered & built for your project? And did you really need the 850 lb-ft capability of that triple disc? Wouldn't a twin with 600 have been enough, and would that have saved you from having to modify the bell housing, etc.?

Josh, I'm all for investigating a multi disc setup. Do you know if Ferrari's twin discs in the past have been organic? I've often thought an organic twin disc should be a good compromise between a full on race clutch with metallic linings which is still fairly cheap, but undriveable (for the street), and the cost of a carbon/carbon setup.

If we can double the friction area with an organic twin disc, we should be able to decrease the pressure from the pressure plate considerably. That and adjusting the hydraulic ratios should result in an improved pedal.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #17 of 18 Old 11-09-2010, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
Mark, how long did it take you & Tilton to get a clutch engineered & built for your project? And did you really need the 850 lb-ft capability of that triple disc? Wouldn't a twin with 600 have been enough, and would that have saved you from having to modify the bell housing, etc.?
.

The clutch pack I have I originally bought of the supercharge V8 and no modification to the bellhousing of any kind was require, in fact a 3/8” spacer was required to extend the throw bearing to reach the clutch. All the bellhousing mods on the V12 were about shortening the assembly so even with the extra length of the V12 really wide wheels still fit under the stock fenders.

When I was ordering my clutch Titlon had just come out with the carbon-carbon set-up and were just starting to try it on street car so there were only 3 or 4 cars running the thing at the time. The tilton guys were thinking the 3 disc would have better service life than the 2 disc and that was the primary driver on the 2/3 decision.

The clutch took about 4 weeks to get if I recall. I did all the adapting for mine, but titlon did offer a service where you send them your stuff and they send back a new flywheel, throw-out bearing and whatever else you need for your application….I don’t think it added much time but I don’t recall actually asking that question.
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post #18 of 18 Old 05-06-2011, 09:03 AM
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I have mixed opinions on these. I tried one on an F1 360 track car and it torched the flywheel and forever had engagement problems. I'm working on a twin turbo upgrade for the 360 at the moment and i'm thinking a paddle may be the way to go. Can't see any issues with stick cars though, i put one in my v8 TVR Cerbera red rose about a year ago and it's fantastic, although a little snatchy.
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