Ferrari Recreations - Opinions? - Ferrari Life
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 50 Old 08-08-2010, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
il Capolino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Switzerland
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,455
Ferrari Recreations - Opinions?

You know what it's like when you see the advertisements of the real exotic vintage Ferraris and it frustrates you that they are so insanely priced. Then you look at the recreations for sale at much lower prices (still lots of money though) and you start playing with your mind - Should I start looking at these or is it too complicated to value them correctly?

May I kindly ask for your viewpoints?

Salve,

il Capolino

Salve,
Capo

The bad news: Time flies
The good news: I'm the pilot

You cannot make life longer but you can make it wider and higher.
il Capolino is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 50 Old 08-08-2010, 03:51 PM
Owner
 
Italian Lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Far end of the P pond
Ferrari Life Posts: 6,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by il Capolino View Post
You know what it's like when you see the advertisements of the real exotic vintage Ferraris and it frustrates you that they are so insanely priced. Then you look at the recreations for sale at much lower prices (still lots of money though) and you start playing with your mind - Should I start looking at these or is it too complicated to value them correctly?

May I kindly ask for your viewpoints?

Salve,

il Capolino
Interesting topic. When you know you cannot shell out millions, it is tempting to go for recreation. Several years ago, I was tempted a bit when I saw a 250GTO recreation that was going for around 300k. Then, I came to my senses, ie. my cerebral portion won over my cerebellum.

As a sidenote, couplle of years ago, I saw this immaculate recreation of 250GTO in a showroom in Southern California, that was for sale for something like 2 million or so (?). The dealer told me the story behind the car. It was owned by an afluent British who actually owned the genuine 250GTO, who had it fully restored but got timid of driving the car. Therefore, he commissioned this recreation for usage instead. Strange, but a bit understandable. Anyway, attached pics show the recreation car.

Back to the topic, ...for the majority of us who simply cannot afford such cars, it is tempting. w/ smiles Jimmy
Attached Images
               
Italian Lover is offline  
post #3 of 50 Old 08-08-2010, 05:29 PM
Owner
 
agp22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Ferrari Life Posts: 374
Favre was supposed to have made (some) good ones. But they were not the original cars. I understand he was speculating. Business.

Just as some people use copies of their jewelery, I can understand Jimmy's post. Yet, if it was not built by Ferrari SPA, as it should have, It loses a lot in my view.

Some guys replicated P3s and other Ferraris, awesome looking, but I don't think I would want a GTO that is not a GTO, a P3 that has a modern engine, or a Cobra that is not a Cobra for that matter.

But you never know... (never say never)

... racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting... (Steve McQueen / Le Mans)
agp22 is offline  
 
post #4 of 50 Old 08-08-2010, 07:05 PM
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
This is a tough one......

When an exact copy of anything can be had for a fraction the cost of an original I guess you really have to ask yourself what exactly your buying when you go for an original. A knock-off is usually inferior, but it we're talking about a machine that is equal in all ways execpt origin........I personally think paying extra for an original is just throwing money away.
mk e is offline  
post #5 of 50 Old 08-09-2010, 02:26 AM
Owner
 
JazzyO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Ferrari Life Posts: 6,392
Hi Capolino,

I had similar views and sentiments a couple of years ago. But since I've seen what has been done to perfectly good Ferraris, completely butchered to create bad replicas, I've changed my view. Just look at the beautiful ex-Julio Battista 250GTE. A concours Ferrari, fully restored in 2004, Ferrari certified, and some #@$#@$#&&$ bought it, took the engine out for a replica and tossed the lifeless car back onto eBay. Criminal.

Then - there's other bad thing: people who own replicas (and a recreation is just a fancy word for a replica), in my experience NEVER own up to it! It makes me angry that people drive these cars and pretend it is the real deal. Like the 250 TdF in the Mille Miglia Tribute that turned out to be a 250GTE rebodied as a TdF.... that angered me when my original 330GTC had to go through scrutineering by Ferrari to see "if it was worthy to participate". It didn't say in the participation list "Rebodied 250GTE", no it said 250TdF. I'm still angry about that - it's deceiving real car lovers. If I had a recreation I would have the word etched in the windscreen. I really would.

In a perfect world, I would not have anything against recreations that:

a) were built from a car that was unsalvageable
b) don't claim to be the real thing
c) are built exactly the way the original car was built

But this will still mean that original parts will be used on a replica, which diminishes the part supply for the real cars.

So no, in the end, I have to say I am against these cars. Particularly if you see how eye-wateringly bad some of them are!! They look in 95% of the cases NOTHING like the real thing to the trained eye.

Let's just accept that these cars are out of reach for almost all of us, and just appreciate them at events like LeMans Classic and Goodwood Revival.


Onno

P.S. One final thing: when I mentioned on another board that I was interested in owning a recreation of a 250TR to experience 4-wheel drifting, somebody replied: get a Formula Ford and do some open wheel racing for a lot less cash. There's a lot of truth in that statement.



Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!
JazzyO is offline  
post #6 of 50 Old 08-09-2010, 02:45 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
il Capolino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Switzerland
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,455
In a perfect world, I would not have anything against recreations that:

a) were built from a car that was unsalvageable
b) don't claim to be the real thing
c) are built exactly the way the original car was built

But this will still mean that original parts will be used on a replica, which diminishes the part supply for the real cars.

So no, in the end, I have to say I am against these cars. Particularly if you see how eye-wateringly bad some of them are!! They look in 95% of the cases NOTHING like the real thing to the trained eye.

Let's just accept that these cars are out of reach for almost all of us, and just appreciate them at events like LeMans Classic and Goodwood Revival.

Very interesting, it makes me see it in another light. Let's hope the badly made replicas reach more value as spare parts and disappear by the law of the market. The well made ones though, would make excelent practice cars for drivers who already own the real thing.

Salve,
Capo

The bad news: Time flies
The good news: I'm the pilot

You cannot make life longer but you can make it wider and higher.
il Capolino is offline  
post #7 of 50 Old 08-09-2010, 02:49 AM
Owner
 
JazzyO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Ferrari Life Posts: 6,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
A knock-off is usually inferior, but it we're talking about a machine that is equal in all ways execpt origin........I personally think paying extra for an original is just throwing money away.
This is a very uninformed view (sorry to be harsh). A copy can never be equal in all ways except origin.

First of all - the whole point is the origin. The reason these cars are so fabulously expensive is that they're LeMans winners, driven by legends. Only a few were made, and all of them were raced. In anger. You cannot copy history. The ones that were not succesful in period are many millions cheaper than the famous ones. That says a lot about what history means to this market.

Secondly - the whole point of these cars, for most owners, is to participate in these spectacular events: LeMans Classic, Villa d'Este, Goodwood Revival, Pebble Beach, Mille Miglia, Tour d'Auto or whatever. You can't do that with a replica.

Thirdly - there are fewer replicas that are "equal in all ways" than there are originals. It is VERY difficult, and VERY expensive to create a "perfect" recreation. Even then, I think that real experts would find fault with them. AND you will still have butchered original Ferraris to get there - because you cannot recreate a lot of the parts. For instance - Ferrari itself is building recreation 250 engines (you can buy one for about EUR160k) but they tend to blow up. This is, I think, because they can't recreate the old alloys - the modern metallurgy doesn't work on the old designs well.

So in the end, if you get to a very well made recreation you will have spent close to a million EUR and you will have destroyed some Ferrari heritage. What have you got to show for it? A car that is not an original Ferrari. Now why the HECK don't you just buy a wonderful 275GTB and a Daytona for the same money? Or a Daytona Competizione with race history?

I tell you why - because you want to pretend you are a 250GTO or 250TR owner! It's pathetic, IMHO. I stayed in a hotel in France last April and the owner told me that he had an original GTO on the front lawn 10 years before. It took me 10 minutes on the internet to find out it was a replica. The owner, RIP, had told him it was original. And this is what I find all the time. It's basking in the glow of someone else's glory.


Onno



Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!
JazzyO is offline  
post #8 of 50 Old 08-09-2010, 12:28 PM
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
This is a very uninformed view (sorry to be harsh). A copy can never be equal in all ways except origin.

First of all - the whole point is the origin. The reason these cars are so fabulously expensive is that they're LeMans winners, driven by legends. Only a few were made, and all of them were raced. In anger. You cannot copy history. The ones that were not succesful in period are many millions cheaper than the famous ones. That says a lot about what history means to this market.

Secondly - the whole point of these cars, for most owners, is to participate in these spectacular events: LeMans Classic, Villa d'Este, Goodwood Revival, Pebble Beach, Mille Miglia, Tour d'Auto or whatever. You can't do that with a replica.

Thirdly - there are fewer replicas that are "equal in all ways" than there are originals. It is VERY difficult, and VERY expensive to create a "perfect" recreation. Even then, I think that real experts would find fault with them. AND you will still have butchered original Ferraris to get there - because you cannot recreate a lot of the parts. For instance - Ferrari itself is building recreation 250 engines (you can buy one for about EUR160k) but they tend to blow up. This is, I think, because they can't recreate the old alloys - the modern metallurgy doesn't work on the old designs well.

So in the end, if you get to a very well made recreation you will have spent close to a million EUR and you will have destroyed some Ferrari heritage. What have you got to show for it? A car that is not an original Ferrari. Now why the HECK don't you just buy a wonderful 275GTB and a Daytona for the same money? Or a Daytona Competizione with race history?

I tell you why - because you want to pretend you are a 250GTO or 250TR owner! It's pathetic, IMHO. I stayed in a hotel in France last April and the owner told me that he had an original GTO on the front lawn 10 years before. It took me 10 minutes on the internet to find out it was a replica. The owner, RIP, had told him it was original. And this is what I find all the time. It's basking in the glow of someone else's glory.


Onno
Well….that’s an interesting point of view, but perhaps a bit uninformed

I assure you [bold]ANY[/bold] physical object can be copied to any level of detail you chose. Pedigree is the only thing about a car that cannot be copied but you’re talking about nothing more than bragging rights, not a car when you go down that path.

With most items the cost of a good copy is more just buying an original but with something where the demand far out weights the supply copies start to make sense. A GTO certainly falls into this category, and so do a 275 or Daytona or 288 or, or, or for that matter. For somebody who likes the look of these cars or wants the overall experience of driving one without the pedigree multiplier tacked onto the price a recreation of some type makes a lot of sense IMO.

That said, sticking a GTO badge on a rebodied GTE or whatever is lying plain and simple. I’m honestly struggling a bit with what badging to leave on my 308 when it’s done since it will no longer have the 3.0l V8 engine as the 308 badge implies. The V12 engine is made from Ferrari parts, but it’s not a combination Ferrari ever assembled so it doesn’t seem right to use say a 456 or 550 designation although both accurately describe the engine’s displacement. I’m leaning toward just removing the 308 and just leaving the QV and GTSi badges since they remain correct and leave it at that. It will be what it will be; I see no reason to mislead people.
mk e is offline  
post #9 of 50 Old 08-09-2010, 03:02 PM
Owner
 
Italian Lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Far end of the P pond
Ferrari Life Posts: 6,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
Well….that’s an interesting point of view, but perhaps a bit uninformed

I assure you [bold]ANY[/bold] physical object can be copied to any level of detail you chose. Pedigree is the only thing about a car that cannot be copied but you’re talking about nothing more than bragging rights, not a car when you go down that path.

With most items the cost of a good copy is more just buying an original but with something where the demand far out weights the supply copies start to make sense. A GTO certainly falls into this category, and so do a 275 or Daytona or 288 or, or, or for that matter. For somebody who likes the look of these cars or wants the overall experience of driving one without the pedigree multiplier tacked onto the price a recreation of some type makes a lot of sense IMO.

That said, sticking a GTO badge on a rebodied GTE or whatever is lying plain and simple. I’m honestly struggling a bit with what badging to leave on my 308 when it’s done since it will no longer have the 3.0l V8 engine as the 308 badge implies. The V12 engine is made from Ferrari parts, but it’s not a combination Ferrari ever assembled so it doesn’t seem right to use say a 456 or 550 designation although both accurately describe the engine’s displacement. I’m leaning toward just removing the 308 and just leaving the QV and GTSi badges since they remain correct and leave it at that. It will be what it will be; I see no reason to mislead people.
+1. I tend to agree with mk e. Not that I am any expert in such field, many of the vintage cars were ruined, burnt, crashed and restored by assemblage parts subsequently and still claim their originality. Some stretching the defiinition to extreme. The all too familiar, so called barn finds, well,... some are nothing but remnants, if nothing else. No misunderstanding here, I do not condone actions of sacrificing a decent engine to be transplanted for this purpose. In other words, nothing is black and white, right or wrong. Probably, somewhere in between. w/ smiles Jimmy

Last edited by Italian Lover; 08-09-2010 at 03:03 PM. Reason: spelling correction
Italian Lover is offline  
post #10 of 50 Old 08-09-2010, 03:05 PM
Owner
 
JazzyO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Ferrari Life Posts: 6,392
I think there is far more black and white than people want to acknowledge.

But I can see there's no convincing people so I'll let it go.


Onno



Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!

Last edited by JazzyO; 08-09-2010 at 03:36 PM.
JazzyO is offline  
post #11 of 50 Old 08-09-2010, 07:06 PM
 
AlexbroPA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 136
Jimmy,

The cerebellum is mostly to do with fine motor movements. I think you were thinking of the limbic system, which has a lot to do with emotions! Sorry for picking nits, just thought it was funny to see something I'm actually familiar with for once on the forum

Alex
AlexbroPA is offline  
post #12 of 50 Old 08-09-2010, 07:46 PM
 
Rodewaryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 22
I have to disagree with the re-creation being evaluated as a replica. The re-creations I've seen originate from a real car, like the badly damaged 250 LM chassis that was replaced from a racing incident and someone took the discarded chassis and re-created another LM. Or the guy that takes a GTE and rebodies it as a previously existing model, like say a GTO. A replica is (the ones I'm familiar with) an exact copy of something, ground up, or created from scratch. Maybe I'm picking nits too but there does seem to be a distinction. Calling a 308 GTB modified to 288GTO spec a replica would be pretty insulting I would think. It's a real Ferrari, that's been modified.

Now here's one. What's Glickenhaus's P4/5, EXACTLY? I see it as a pretty genuine Ferrari since it's a rebodied Enzo, by Pinninfarina. That's some pretty credible background. However, it's not a proper factory Ferrari model. I would never insult the guy or his wonderful car as I not only think the Enzo is incorrectly named (should have been an F60), but is an unattractive car that made Enzo roll over in the grave, esp considering the designer.....John's glorious P4/5 would not only have met Enzo's standards, but would have made him proud as a significantly more attractive car to carry his name. Just my opinion though.


Mel Gibson only acted the part.
Rodewaryer is offline  
post #13 of 50 Old 08-09-2010, 09:23 PM
Owner
 
Italian Lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Far end of the P pond
Ferrari Life Posts: 6,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexbroPA View Post
Jimmy,

The cerebellum is mostly to do with fine motor movements. I think you were thinking of the limbic system, which has a lot to do with emotions! Sorry for picking nits, just thought it was funny to see something I'm actually familiar with for once on the forum

Alex
Thanx, Alex. That is exactly my problem. Somethiing is not working right in there. w/ smiles Jimmy
Italian Lover is offline  
post #14 of 50 Old 08-09-2010, 11:22 PM
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodewaryer View Post

Now here's one. What's Glickenhaus's P4/5, EXACTLY? I see it as a pretty genuine Ferrari since it's a rebodied Enzo, by Pinninfarina. That's some pretty credible background. However, it's not a proper factory Ferrari model. I would never insult the guy or his wonderful car as I not only think the Enzo is incorrectly named (should have been an F60), but is an unattractive car that made Enzo roll over in the grave, esp considering the designer.....John's glorious P4/5 would not only have met Enzo's standards, but would have made him proud as a significantly more attractive car to carry his name. Just my opinion though.
The P4/5 is an official ferrari model as I understand it. Ferrari blessed the name and gave Jim some sort of documentation.

They have blessed other things in the past as well as I understand it. Several companies that I'm aware of that build bodies or even bodies and chassis intended to make 1 ferrari model appear to be a different model have been given permission to proceed within some general guidelines. In contrast companies who make body kits that start with anything but ferrari mechanical parts are pursued aggressively in court until they are shut down for good. I think that says that Ferrari draws a similar distinction to what you’re saying, a rebodied GTE that looks like a GTO is a customized Ferrari, a rebodied 240Z or whatever that looks like a GTO is theft of a design.

I personally find a 275 much more attractive than a GTO and I would consider building a 275ish looking thing using 456 or 550 engine/trans when I wrap up my current project. A little wider probably, a lot more fuel injected (I just HATE carbs), a whole lot higher performance than a real 275 could ever dream of being....and a WHOLE lot cheaper than a real 275. I'll probably never get a round to it, but it's a project I would like to do if time and budget ever permit.

Last edited by mk e; 08-09-2010 at 11:33 PM.
mk e is offline  
post #15 of 50 Old 08-10-2010, 06:10 AM
Owner
 
barcheta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Maryland
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,875
Fakes are fakes.
Having said that I like a well executed Cobra or Ferrari fake. As long as its not portrayed as the real thing I have no issues with it. The quality of copy is directly proportional to the amount of money thrown at it. Just two weeks ago we were discussing a 250 GT California that someone showed up with at our cars and coffee. It was made by the company that built the Ferris Bueler ferrari. Not a great copy but it fooled plenty. If it had been spotlessly clean and well presented it may have fooled more.

It was interesting though the level of scorn most people bestowed on it once they found out it was not the real thing.

Glickenhaus' car is not a fake.... is a one off commission. It doesn't look like a P3/P4. It doesn't sound like one either. It's not trying to.

Peter Kalikow also has a GTO replica built from a salvage 330. He took what was a worthless hulk and gave it a new life. Still a fake but he's upfront about it. His 612 Kappa another commissioned car is in the same flavor as Jim's P4/P5. I like them both.
Attached Images
   

Current: 85' GTS QV
It's a simple process...... it's just complicated by human beings....
barcheta is offline  
post #16 of 50 Old 08-10-2010, 06:32 AM
Owner
 
Vitalone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,130
I'm with Onno on this and I would add that another problem with blurring distinctions between the real car vs replica vs recreation vs homage etc is that confusion reigns and money and ego's becomes more important than the beauty and heritage of the real deal. For instance I believe that more "genuine" Alfa Monza's exist now than were produced. I have heard of Bugatti's where three cars were made out of one: the original engine taken from one car and new body built around it, a new engine built from "original factory spares" to be inserted into the now engineless original body and a third car built around the original transmission and suspension. So which one of these three is the real car? Or if they are equally legitimate, do we have three "new old real" cars? Or have we destroyed an original car to come up with three faithful recreations? In this case, as the real car no longer exisits, these closest-you-can-get-to-the-real-deal go up in value and the three may collectively be worth more than the one original untouched real deal. Imagine being in the fortunate position of acquiring a supposedly genuine icon and then to find out the the same engine and chassis numbers exist on another car. Let the legal battles begin!

As mentioned before another unfortunate corrollary of this is that genuine "lesser" cars such as the V12 2+2's get vandalised to provide parts for the recreations. A 2002 copy of a GTO or TDf of SWB is seen to be more worthy of a factory 1962 produced, no stories 250 GTE 2+2, thus justifying the vandalisation of the the 2+2. Not in my books.

Let's not devalue, in any sense of the word, the real cars (such devaluation entailing devaluation of the donor cars too), let's rather strive to own one if we really want one and if not possible, let's look at alternatives. I would be much happier owning a genuine 1973 Ferrari Daytona than a faithful 2010 copy/recreation/homage/replica of a 250 GTO with genuine 1962 parts. And if I already had a Daytona then I would examine the many alternatives still available, maybe even looking at other marques such as a Lamborghini Miura or a Porsche Carrera RS. Although in the latter case there are also more cars running around than were actually made in period by the factory. So I would have to scrutinise the alternatives for authenticity just as much as making sure a GTO is a real one.
Vitalone is offline  
post #17 of 50 Old 08-10-2010, 07:01 AM
Administrator
Owner
Elite Member
 
Boxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK & Texas
Ferrari Life Posts: 15,131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitalone View Post
I'm with Onno on this and I would add that another problem with blurring distinctions between the real car vs replica vs recreation vs homage etc is that confusion reigns and money and ego's becomes more important than the beauty and heritage of the real deal. For instance I believe that more "genuine" Alfa Monza's exist now than were produced. I have heard of Bugatti's where three cars were made out of one: the original engine taken from one car and new body built around it, a new engine built from "original factory spares" to be inserted into the now engineless original body and a third car built around the original transmission and suspension. So which one of these three is the real car? Or if they are equally legitimate, do we have three "new old real" cars? Or have we destroyed an original car to come up with three faithful recreations? In this case, as the real car no longer exisits, these closest-you-can-get-to-the-real-deal go up in value and the three may collectively be worth more than the one original untouched real deal. Imagine being in the fortunate position of acquiring a supposedly genuine icon and then to find out the the same engine and chassis numbers exist on another car. Let the legal battles begin!

As mentioned before another unfortunate corrollary of this is that genuine "lesser" cars such as the V12 2+2's get vandalised to provide parts for the recreations. A 2002 copy of a GTO or TDf of SWB is seen to be more worthy of a factory 1962 produced, no stories 250 GTE 2+2, thus justifying the vandalisation of the the 2+2. Not in my books.

Let's not devalue, in any sense of the word, the real cars (such devaluation entailing devaluation of the donor cars too), let's rather strive to own one if we really want one and if not possible, let's look at alternatives. I would be much happier owning a genuine 1973 Ferrari Daytona than a faithful 2010 copy/recreation/homage/replica of a 250 GTO with genuine 1962 parts. And if I already had a Daytona then I would examine the many alternatives still available, maybe even looking at other marques such as a Lamborghini Miura or a Porsche Carrera RS. Although in the latter case there are also more cars running around than were actually made in period by the factory. So I would have to scrutinise the alternatives for authenticity just as much as making sure a GTO is a real one.
Very well put and I have to agree. I would rather have a "lesser" authentic car, then a more valuable "recreation".

Given that Joe Macari has had at least two very good 250 GTO recreations for sale for close to two year, believe the market would agree.
Boxer is offline  
post #18 of 50 Old 08-10-2010, 08:57 AM
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
I think you guys are missing something important….(almost) nobody would take a no-stories anything and cuts it up for its parts. Normally what gets altered are cars that would otherwise be scrapped because the cost to repair/restore it would exceed the value of the car, often by several times, so it become someone’s project.

I personally love projects and can’t stand to leave anything alone. I am V12ing my 308 because I can, no other real reason. It’s not a no-stories car or I wouldn’t be doing it…..I bought it specifically because it had issues that were beyond what could reasonable be corrected so I wouldn’t feel bad about altering it. I got it from a scrap dealer 10 years ago and put it back together with parts I liked. For the engine I’m using a 400 block and TR heads…..but I didn’t cut up either a good 400 or a good TR to get the parts, I called the scrap yards and asked what they had. At last count I had parts from 8 different Ferrari models bolted somewhere on the car, all from ebay or a scrap yard. It’s not a project that makes any sense and I think if I were paying for labor the engine alone would be $250k-$300k. This car is what it is, exists for no purpose other than to please me and were it not for me it would not exist at all.

Now can any of you guys honestly tell me you would have rather seen the car cut-up or crushed than customized? I can tell you when I’ve had it out racing with the previous engine (a 550hp supercharger 308 engine) nobody seemed to feel cheated that it wasn’t a stock original example that was kicking there ass, all they seemed to see was a Ferrari doing what Ferraris do, winning. If I decide I want a stinkin hot 275 looking thing to absolutely abuse would any of you really rather seen me alter a real 275 instead of putting it together from junk yard parts?

Personally I can’t stand to watch a vintage race for fear something might happen to an original car that just can’t be replaced……although I guess to one point that has already been made, how much of the original car (beyond the paperwork) do you think anything that has a racing history or has been through a restoration actually is original with no stories?....my wager would be very little.
mk e is offline  
post #19 of 50 Old 08-10-2010, 09:50 AM
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer View Post

Given that Joe Macari has had at least two very good 250 GTO recreations for sale for close to two year, believe the market would agree.
I think it means they are overpriced just like the 2 houses on my block that have been for sale for 2+ year.

Custom stuff is always pretty hard to value. At $100 on ebay both cars would be gone in 5 minutes, at $100MM they’d be for sale for ever.....but what's the "right" number?????



The nice 288 GTO copies are bringing in the $60K-$80K range for cars that cost in the $125k-$250K range to build (have built is more accurate). 250 GTOs cost quite a bit more to build so I’d guess a nice looking GTO copy should bring $100k to maybe $300k depending on the quality and the parts used…..just a guess though.
mk e is offline  
post #20 of 50 Old 08-10-2010, 10:25 AM
Owner
 
Vitalone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
I think you guys are missing something important….(almost) nobody would take a no-stories anything and cuts it up for its parts. Normally what gets altered are cars that would otherwise be scrapped because the cost to repair/restore it would exceed the value of the car, often by several times, so it become someone’s project.

I personally love projects and can’t stand to leave anything alone. I am V12ing my 308 because I can, no other real reason. It’s not a no-stories car or I wouldn’t be doing it…..
Good points about your fascinating 3012 but this is a seperate discussion. Nontheless an interesting one: modifying versus replicating. As you are not trying to make a toolroom copy of a 288GTO or F40, your time and effort is not being spent on replicating an existing icon. Rather you are saving Ferrari's that otherwise would be and have been scrapped and modifying them into your expression of how you would like your 308 to be. The factory never made a V12 308 and you are providing an interesting taste of what could have been had the factory explored this option.

Replicating on the other hand leads to sound or salvageable "lesser" Ferrari's being stripped to provide genuine factory parts for a copy of an iconic Ferrari. So a good 1962 250 GTE 2+2 is deemed to be lesser than a 2010 GTO recreation/replica/homage with genuine 1962 Ferrari parts. The money element creeps in as I see that "good" replica GTO's with genuine 250 GTE 2+2 parts have asking prices at least 300% higher than good, genuine 250 GTE 2+2's.

Not only have I heard of no-story 250 GTE's being cut up for parts as donor cars, I have also heard of no-story icons being cut up to make 3 cars out of one, such as the Bugatti example given in my earlier post. This is my point with the murky grey world of replicating icons from "lesser" models, money and ego's take over from the beauty and heritage of not only the original cars but also of the donor. The beauty and heritage of the original icon are then to be used as justification for making money in the first place.
Vitalone is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
Copyright 2012 ONE Media, Inc.
FerrariLife is independently run with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA
Ferrari for Sale | Maserati for Sale