Don't Assume - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 9 Old 05-04-2010, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Don't Assume

I know some people here have bought used engines and installed them without problems, but it's a good idea to double check EVERYTHING before assuming something is good.
Found this a while back.
Customer purchased a used engine to replace one that had spun a couple of rod bearings.
Engine turned over fine, but he decided to have it torn down and inspected before paying his mechanic for installation---good thing.
Upon disassembly, one piston/rod seemed tight on the wrist pin, when removing the pin lock, the side of the piston flaked away. Found a broken wrist pin, smashed pin bushing, etc. Not to mention, 3 other pistons had stuck rings from moisture and corrosion.
Good thing he didn't take for granted that the engine was fine....it would have been a grenade with the pin pulled.

Also had another 355 engine shipped in this year that had worse leakdown numbers than the one removed from the car, it was being sold as a 12k mile "good" engine.
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post #2 of 9 Old 05-04-2010, 01:43 PM
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One question I have, and I know the correct answer, but still have to ask is: How does one price an engine when not torn down.

I know. Tear it down. I would expect to under any unknown engine or from any person one does not trust/know, just to know what's in there.

Yet, that is about as friendly as a PPI in the a foreign land.

Any pointers?

How to price.

Guide to the Galaxy: Don't Panic
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post #3 of 9 Old 05-04-2010, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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I don't recommend buying used, I recommend rebuilding what you have. That's how I make a living.
At least when you rebuild, you know what you're getting and know it's all new and as good as it can be.
If you do buy used, at least invest in a pair of head gaskets and a 30k service kit and have the engine pulled down to check condition. Some things can't be detected during a leakdown/compression test. Even if this engine would have passed the leakdown test, the broken pin would have taken the whole engine out very soon.

Here is a pic of the "good" used 12k mile 355 engine that was shipped in. It leaked over 50% on one cylinder, and 30+% on 4 others...the best one was 22%. If it really had 12k on it, it had suffered a very rough life. The original engine in the car had a blown head gasket and in an effort to save money this used engine was purchased. Needless to say, it was sent back and we rebuilt the original at only slightly more cost than what the used one cost.....
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post #4 of 9 Old 05-04-2010, 04:11 PM
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Gary...when you choose to rebuild, do you stay with stock parts or are there any "better" parts out there that generally compare at Ferrari price points? I'm not talking about things like Hill tennsioners etal, Thats a given. What about better rods, pistons, improving compression, etc... Are Ferrari heads fairly well surfaced or would a good polish be noticable? Do the cams taken most of the performance or are there replacements that perform better?

I guess what I'm asking is if your doing the whole engine anyway, are there any decent upgrades worth doing? Assume 348 or 355 for conversation purposes.

Lane

Previous owner of 348ts SS #64, Now Ferrariless
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post #5 of 9 Old 05-04-2010, 11:55 PM
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Holy $hite, I am almost complete my rebuild, I ended up buying a used engine with 20k on it as it would of cost me double to fix mine. In Sept I ended up putting a hole in my #1 piston the size of a quarter . Compression and leakdown checked out better than my original and we did the full 30k service on it and then some, I feel really confident we have a good engine but this article scares me

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post #6 of 9 Old 05-05-2010, 05:37 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Life View Post
Holy $hite, I am almost complete my rebuild, I ended up buying a used engine with 20k on it as it would of cost me double to fix mine. In Sept I ended up putting a hole in my #1 piston the size of a quarter . Compression and leakdown checked out better than my original and we did the full 30k service on it and then some, I feel really confident we have a good engine but this article scares me
That was my whole intent Roberto, to scare people.
Not really, I just wanted people to know that what you see on the surface isn't always the way everything else is. The engine with the broken pin leaked down fairly good from what the mechanic that was going to install it said. The stuck rings had enough crap on them that I'm sure no air would have gotten around them....until the engine was fired, then I'm sure under combustion and fuel washing it out, it would be different. And after some RPM's that cylinder would have had 100% leakage when the piston flew apart!
I saw pics of your engine, it looked pretty clean....I'm sure yours will be fine.
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post #7 of 9 Old 05-05-2010, 05:55 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Saint Bastage View Post
Gary...when you choose to rebuild, do you stay with stock parts or are there any "better" parts out there that generally compare at Ferrari price points? I'm not talking about things like Hill tennsioners etal, Thats a given. What about better rods, pistons, improving compression, etc... Are Ferrari heads fairly well surfaced or would a good polish be noticable? Do the cams taken most of the performance or are there replacements that perform better?

I guess what I'm asking is if your doing the whole engine anyway, are there any decent upgrades worth doing? Assume 348 or 355 for conversation purposes.
Lane,
Yes, there are better parts....at lower prices than OEM stuff.
After doing quite a few of these engines and getting crap parts, I knew there was a better way.
We use our own design pistons and ring package...it's shown great results. I've also ported quite a few heads, flow bench numbers and seat of the pants feel in power has shown good results. We have valves/guides and seals too. Dave Helms has all of his parts that are light years ahead of anything else, I think he also has head gaskets available. As soon as the shop clears out a bit, I'll be working on my engine dyno getting it set up to test these engines. First on will be 355 engines....I'll be doing baseline tests on a standard type engine, then we'll be testing our piston/ring package, our cylinder liner coating, port work, then on to internal engine coatings. Header comparisions also. I'll be doing some verification of some of Dave Helms parts also, he has been the one pushing for making these things more reliable and powerful.
All the speculation as to horsepower numbers will finally be put to rest, and we'll have some numbers in black and white to show.
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post #8 of 9 Old 05-05-2010, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by enginefxr View Post
That was my whole intent Roberto, to scare people.
Not really, I just wanted people to know that what you see on the surface isn't always the way everything else is. The engine with the broken pin leaked down fairly good from what the mechanic that was going to install it said. The stuck rings had enough crap on them that I'm sure no air would have gotten around them....until the engine was fired, then I'm sure under combustion and fuel washing it out, it would be different. And after some RPM's that cylinder would have had 100% leakage when the piston flew apart!
I saw pics of your engine, it looked pretty clean....I'm sure yours will be fine.

HOPEFULLY, this weekend [I keep threatening these postings of pics] I'll show some unbelievable pics of a 348 engine rebuild that make you wonder if Giusseppe was sucking more than one bottle of Chianti at lunch. The engine in question was NEVER rebuilt or torn apart from the factory build.

But wait till you see what was found on the inside in particular two items: a. one might have been a ticking time bomb, b. can someone say 'perfectly great' crank [it was micrometered in all respects] BUT, rear crank bore NEVER saw, if ever a contact with the crank? Ya', it happened.

If you think even the Ferraris are 'perfect' out of the factory, well, stay tuned...but, they ARE works or art in many respects.

Point being, as ENGINEFXR states, Don't assume. Break it down. And EVEN if the figures seem to be within the specs there should be careful attention to correct procedures and background to fix and or repair even the 'perfect factory' engines.

Guide to the Galaxy: Don't Panic
Rik -- LAH !


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Last edited by Granucci; 05-05-2010 at 10:28 AM.
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post #9 of 9 Old 05-05-2010, 11:37 AM
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Very cool Gary. I remember seeing some pics of (challenge?) Rods going in to (Angelis'?) engine but they appeared rather bulky. Seemed like a bit of tradeoff, strength for performance.

Lane

Previous owner of 348ts SS #64, Now Ferrariless
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