Engine Crank Bore : out of specs - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 32 Old 01-31-2010, 02:54 AM Thread Starter
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Engine Crank Bore : out of specs

Noticed an engine, Ferrari, 8cylinder when broken down that has One/1 of the crank seats/bores out of specs. That is, the #5 bore is 1thou too large. When the bearing are put in place and again measurements are taken the bearing are in specs. The correct torque is applied each time. the micrometers and expansion types are callibrated, and the paperwork shows the correct factory specs.

The crank is almost new in the sense it is so close to factory in every respect across all measurements that there is no cause for any concern.

The ONLY bearing, that shows little to zero, and I mean zero wear is #5, far end. This engine has 45k miles and has [to my knowledge] never every been brokend down/taken apart. I have some pics showing 'other anomolies' from the factory that would make one shake their head..truly, but this one has me stumped.

It looks like the first four crank seats are holding the entire crank in place.

In other worlds, I would have a thicker bearing put in place but Ferrari doesn't make those thicker, only thinner.

No wear on any of the other bearing to speak of: Normal.

It came from the factor like this. Hard to believe, but looking at other stuff, I believe Ferrari engines are NOT as sacred as one thinks. Really, I'll post some pics that'll show otherwise.

Having an inner bore larger will prevent correct crush of the bearing.

I will NOT modify the crank as almost perfect, I will NOT modify the hole to accomodate the size, I would only consider thicker bearings, which would have to be a special mfgr/search: Probably not happening.

So what are your takes on this?

I'm at a loss to understand how this went, but inclinded to leave well enough alone. It is a 1990 348/Mondial T so one of the first runs of [what] less than 5,000 engines total? [1517 Mondials and how many 348s?]


Any comments appreciated, don't worry you re not dealing with a gearhead in sense I've done much work in this....I'm learning as I go too: THUS, this thread.

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post #2 of 32 Old 01-31-2010, 03:54 AM
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I know it is quite common on American engines when you have a problem you can line bore the whole thing and put in oversize bearings. No problem. They do it all the time.

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post #3 of 32 Old 01-31-2010, 04:02 AM Thread Starter
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Exactly. But any bearings from Ferrai are thinner. I am still out on this as what to do. Wife, and Mechanic are doing the work together, and I'm the fly on the wall. Wife feels it's good to go, as he to leave it well enough alone, but it's bothersome. I know it's lasted this long, but can't help but feel there will be some crank strain, somewhere down the road. Albeit, it is on the very end/thick portion where less middle strain.

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post #4 of 32 Old 01-31-2010, 06:11 AM
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Why would they make thinner bearings? Do they expect the crankshaft to grow?

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post #5 of 32 Old 01-31-2010, 11:18 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KKRace View Post
Why would they make thinner bearings? Do they expect the crankshaft to grow?

LOL, ya' I could not get over that one too

have zero Idea....perhaps Ferraris no only appreciate in value but in sizes too

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post #6 of 32 Old 01-31-2010, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Almost decided

Wife is almost 99% deicded to rebuild as is, with better parts and NOT make any adjustments for that one bearing: Might, just might get a slightly thicker bearing for it next shipment...if not, send back and get anothere bearing.

There were no sounds form the engine bottom or such when running, ran fine. There were no loss in oil pressure albeint at times, when cold I sometimes saw lower pressure levels: Hmm.

We can boost the Oil pressure a bit on the exhaust nozzles and perhaps take care of that, but

Here is where I thing

Down the road the measurements will get smaller, and eventually out of spec. as they are in spec, duh, on the low side of measrements.

I think as she since I'm pushing 60 she 52 or something that we'll be dead and let the kids sort it.. :P so .... good to go. This is not a racer, just a dialy driver and with proper warmups constant changes of fluids, and such, it will be good to go, I'll bet, for at least about 100,000 more miles.

Wife has the final say, as I am the gopher boy doing the grunt work [my eyes my eyes...it's a bey#ch getting old and seeing your eye sight go to toast]

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post #7 of 32 Old 02-11-2010, 08:49 AM
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Just saw this thread.
Is the engine back together yet?
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post #8 of 32 Old 02-11-2010, 12:18 PM Thread Starter
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and

Quote:
Originally Posted by enginefxr View Post
Just saw this thread.
Is the engine back together yet?
just saw your post

Wife and us decided to re-do according to specs 'while we are in there and have some top end people do the boring

great bunch of people.

A VERY high end shop [won't say, NASCAR, Infineon one of top two in the US ]
still working on the solution to the Crank caps before the final bore drill.

Two solutions for the cap play: 1. Torque caps to spec, put in the honing mandrel, look for play:
a. play only on one side or other, then face, plane/hone, and tap back into place. b. if both sides look near same, then stake the sides for same effect.

Once that is done, then plane the cap facing [sides to the block/mate face] by a [I'll use the term loosely here] small thou. and THEN, put in the bore and enlarge the center/crank holes to specs.

The crush should be fine and the flang holes/sockets area for each bearing is on.

STILL waiting on some parts. Valve guides in--better than OEM and to spec for each hole [7$/hole, not $200+OEM/hole]. Rings [not the OEM $300/hole ones, but better for about $30/hole....] Bits, pieces, and RICAMBI other stuff...NOT ordered by me. and HILL bearings.

Will try to do the bottom this Sat. but if all the pieces not there, might move on to grind the valves and other little 'stuff'...depends if the wife going this route or what.

AT LEAST the 456 is back as of Tues. and that will make driving to the shop, as the Mexican food, FUN.

will keep up dated.

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post #9 of 32 Old 02-21-2010, 04:17 AM
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The main bore spec's are very critical in the Ferrari engines. On the later engines with Dry Sump lubrication there is enough oil pump to hide the problems. On the early 12 cylinder engines it is what makes the oil gauge mimic the tach. The early engines are designed to be built with less than .001" main bearing clearance and that requires a Perfectly straight and true main bore.

Ferrari offered (3 or 4 decades ago) a "Lapping Bar" and a "Checking Bar" just for this purpose...A PITA to use but nothing gets them better than that bar. I have them both and put them to use on any of the special engines. It is a long drawn out operation starting with 400 grit lapping compound and working up to 2000 Grit but the end result is perfection and polished journals of the exact same size. Machine line hones can be done but to a lesser degree of finish.

Usually the center main is the problem child on the 348 engines. Pounding out of the rear main indicates a flywheel problem somewhere in the past. My 348 IMSA race engine shows the rear main to be pounded out but that is due to the use of a Triple Disc Clutch mounted on a Formula One single piece flywheel...ie, Zero Dampening of any harmonic vibrations the engine produces in the Rev range. On an engine designed for a life cycle of 4 hrs at 10K RPM between teardowns thats OK, on a street engine its unacceptable in my book.
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post #10 of 32 Old 02-22-2010, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehelms View Post
The main bore spec's are very critical in the Ferrari engines. On the later engines with Dry Sump lubrication there is enough oil pump to hide the problems. On the early 12 cylinder engines it is what makes the oil gauge mimic the tach. The early engines are designed to be built with less than .001" main bearing clearance and that requires a Perfectly straight and true main bore.

Ferrari offered (3 or 4 decades ago) a "Lapping Bar" and a "Checking Bar" just for this purpose...A PITA to use but nothing gets them better than that bar. I have them both and put them to use on any of the special engines. It is a long drawn out operation starting with 400 grit lapping compound and working up to 2000 Grit but the end result is perfection and polished journals of the exact same size. Machine line hones can be done but to a lesser degree of finish.

Usually the center main is the problem child on the 348 engines. Pounding out of the rear main indicates a flywheel problem somewhere in the past. My 348 IMSA race engine shows the rear main to be pounded out but that is due to the use of a Triple Disc Clutch mounted on a Formula One single piece flywheel...ie, Zero Dampening of any harmonic vibrations the engine produces in the Rev range. On an engine designed for a life cycle of 4 hrs at 10K RPM between teardowns thats OK, on a street engine its unacceptable in my book.

Well, this is the rear bearing, which interestingly enough shows little to no wear: Looks like it came almost of the factory floor, while the other three show very very slight wear: Of course being replaced.

I'm passing this along but as things go, we are a bit off schedule as many other things have gotten in the way.

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post #11 of 32 Old 02-24-2010, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
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Well, this is the rear bearing, which interestingly enough shows little to no wear: Looks like it came almost of the factory floor, while the other three show very very slight wear: Of course being replaced.

I'm passing this along but as things go, we are a bit off schedule as many other things have gotten in the way.
Oh how I understand the "In the way" statement, that is looking like it will insure I do not have a fun car for the coming summer...

It being an early car make sure you do the part upgrades in the front of the engine and stitch Tig weld the lower belt gear fences. When everything is as it should be the belt doesnt ride on those BUT.... I am in the middle of a 90 TS where the belt tension was set to high "C" on a major done 6 months earlier by someone else. Took out the belt drive gear bearings putting the belt against the fences on that gear and tearing those off....pushing the snowball over the edge of a long hill and requiring a good bit of Craytex polishing of dents in pistons.

The oil pump chain has been a weak link...replace it. Throwing humbleness to the wind, strongly consider doing the Gold Connector Kit install while the engine is out now, money well spent at this point on an early car.... it was a 2.5 T Coupe and a 2.7 T Cab that led to the developement of that kit and years later both are running seamlessly. There are a few other electrical fixes I am considering making a part of either the Gold Kit or the fuse box repair kit that solve the starter inop failure if that happens to have plagued you in the past.

Last edited by davehelms; 02-24-2010 at 03:14 AM.
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post #12 of 32 Old 02-24-2010, 08:47 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by davehelms View Post
Oh how I understand the "In the way" statement, that is looking like it will insure I do not have a fun car for the coming summer...

It being an early car make sure you do the part upgrades in the front of the engine and stitch Tig weld the lower belt gear fences. When everything is as it should be the belt doesnt ride on those BUT.... I am in the middle of a 90 TS where the belt tension was set to high "C" on a major done 6 months earlier by someone else. Took out the belt drive gear bearings putting the belt against the fences on that gear and tearing those off....pushing the snowball over the edge of a long hill and requiring a good bit of Craytex polishing of dents in pistons.

The oil pump chain has been a weak link...replace it. Throwing humbleness to the wind, strongly consider doing the Gold Connector Kit install while the engine is out now, money well spent at this point on an early car.... it was a 2.5 T Coupe and a 2.7 T Cab that led to the developement of that kit and years later both are running seamlessly. There are a few other electrical fixes I am considering making a part of either the Gold Kit or the fuse box repair kit that solve the starter inop failure if that happens to have plagued you in the past.
Sent you a PM regarding the Box fix.

We will be doing the gold tips as Brian Crall replaced my tips last week on the 456 using your items: Would that I had done that earlier. The result was a poor reading sensor due to bad connections etc. and lead to TOO rich a mix as the sensor thought otherwise . Result: FRIED Cat and at OEM price of $5,000/right side and $9,000/LEFT SIDE [ya'...go figure!!] the simple solution would have been to have good harness and connections.

BRIAN mentioned that to me about a year ago, but honestly we thought it good to go: [stepping to side on a box] GUYS: Replace and inspect all hoses, connectors, and those easily non-metal products, to mention mounts too!!!!!! [I could tell stories on fried exhaust manifolds too, so don't get me started] Dave Helms absolutely is one of the guys you should be not only considering but doing business with.[gets off box]
The other guys is HILL engr. Do their bearings and don't looks back.

You have been, weighed, drawn and found wanting otherwise [one of my fav. movies....{ I do go off sometimes.}

I will be contacting on the box, connectors and assorted hoses etc.

We discussed the chain as, WHY NOT. Will pass along on the TIG as wasn't aware.

Ya', things in the way: SUC&s to get old....

Rik

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post #13 of 32 Old 02-24-2010, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granucci View Post
Sent you a PM regarding the Box fix.

We will be doing the gold tips as Brian Crall replaced my tips last week on the 456 using your items: Would that I had done that earlier. The result was a poor reading sensor due to bad connections etc. and lead to TOO rich a mix as the sensor thought otherwise . Result: FRIED Cat and at OEM price of $5,000/right side and $9,000/LEFT SIDE [ya'...go figure!!] the simple solution would have been to have good harness and connections.

BRIAN mentioned that to me about a year ago, but honestly we thought it good to go: [stepping to side on a box] GUYS: Replace and inspect all hoses, connectors, and those easily non-metal products, to mention mounts too!!!!!! [I could tell stories on fried exhaust manifolds too, so don't get me started] Dave Helms absolutely is one of the guys you should be not only considering but doing business with.[gets off box]
The other guys is HILL engr. Do their bearings and don't looks back.

You have been, weighed, drawn and found wanting otherwise [one of my fav. movies....{ I do go off sometimes.}

I will be contacting on the box, connectors and assorted hoses etc.

We discussed the chain as, WHY NOT. Will pass along on the TIG as wasn't aware.

Ya', things in the way: SUC&s to get old....

Rik

One chain tensioner is NLA, fighting that this AM....we should have that solved by days end.

Dave
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post #14 of 32 Old 02-24-2010, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by davehelms View Post
One chain tensioner is NLA, fighting that this AM....we should have that solved by days end.

Dave
I assume you're referring to 147338 ?


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post #15 of 32 Old 02-24-2010, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I assume you're referring to 147338 ?

We were aware of the pad, and do have the upgrade I'm quite sure from you.

Daniel, are you talking #26 http://www.ricambiamerica.com/produc...ucts_id=197031 part 133089 [133089 Oil Pump Chain?]
or the one you mention

Neither is a big deal to me when dealing with the low end. Personally lots of bits there that concern me, like non-locked nuts etc.

but that's my aero side yacking, what do I know....never like to have an engine fall apart in the air....or take out your good stuff like lubbing parts.

All gears in the oil pump look sound and good and DON'T want to fuss with what looks great.

Daniel: Sure you'll be getting MORE orders...already know we got some kits in from you.

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post #16 of 32 Old 02-25-2010, 03:43 AM
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I assume you're referring to 147338 ?

Sounds right...one was a 337 and the other a 338.

I think we have that solved now and have them in stock. Today we assemble and see if there are any fitment issues with the proposed replacement but it looks foolproof and at a fraction of the cost.
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post #17 of 32 Old 02-26-2010, 07:11 AM
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Another process perfected yesterday. After the stitch welds to the fences I spoke about we have figured out a replating procedure that is all done to FAA Spec's to hold the rust on the gears at bay. The rust is a major contributor to belt wear as it is so abrasive. In this case, the 15th try was a charm... now to gather up used sets to start an exchange program.
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post #18 of 32 Old 02-26-2010, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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Wow

wonderful, I believe I'll be one of your first.

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post #19 of 32 Old 02-28-2010, 08:18 PM
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wonderful, I believe I'll be one of your first.
Get in line!!!

Dave, what about for 360's?
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post #20 of 32 Old 03-01-2010, 02:41 AM
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Get in line!!!

Dave, what about for 360's?
The 360 is the next to be done as I just finished a set of 348's last week. As long as Ferrari didnt change the material spec's from that of the earlier cars, those will pose no problems.

Finding enough spare's to start an exchange program is the next challenge. That said, the latest process doesnt take but a few days and is only part of a bigger package I am working on. Time will tell if there is enough call for this to warrant investing in spares but it is our new standard at our shop.

What I thought would be quite simple proved to be a major challenge with dozens of failed attempts for more reasons than I would ever have suspected...this time we got it right.
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