No need to warmup the engine? - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 04:01 AM Thread Starter
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No need to warmup the engine?

Myth or reality?
Just read this article
Your thoughts?

Across the U.S., people with remote car starters sit in their kitchens sipping coffee while their car warms up in the driveway.

It’s a commonly-held belief that engines need to warm up before you hop in the car on days when the temperature drops below freezing. In fact, a 2009 study from Vanderbilt University found that most Americans think a car should idle for at least five minutes before its driven.

But that commonly held belief is wrong. And here’s why.

The misconception has roots in truth as cars built prior to the 1980s did need time to warm up. Starting in the 1980s, automakers switched out carburetors for modern fuel injection systems, which regulate the ratio of air to fuel that reaches your engine. The carburetor needed warm up time in order to get the right mix of air to fuel, but fuel injection systems rely on oxygen sensors for that task.

Also See: How Long Can You Stay Outside In Cold Weather?
Therefore, any car built post-1990 (the last car sold with a carburetor in the U.S. was the 1990 Subaru Justy) only needs about 30 seconds to reach ready-to-drive conditions. Both the engine and the interior of your car will warm up faster when the car is driven, according to the U.S. Department of Energy.

Unnecessarily idling your car also impacts both your health and your wallet.

Health Concerns

Every 10 seconds your car runs, it releases one pound of carbon dioxide, according to the Environmental Defense Fund. This greenhouse gas is the biggest contributor to global warming.

Breathing in carbon dioxide is also bad for your health, especially for children, the elderly and anyone with asthma. Breathing car exhaust has been linked to increased rates of cancer, heart and lung disease, asthma and allergies, according to The Madison Energy Group.

An idling car also releases carbon monoxide which can be fatal if too much of the gas is inhaled. Never let your car run in an enclosed space such as a garage.

Wasted Money

Cold weather will affect your fuel economy no matter what you do, but letting your car idle only increases the amount of gas wasted. Even with the recent plummet in gas prices, wasted gas means wasted money.

A study from Natural Resources Canada showed that idling a car for five minutes increased fuel consumption by 7 to 14 percent and a 10-minute warm-up raised that number to 12 to 19 percent.

Damaged Cars

Idling also causes problems with your car, once again hitting your wallet where it hurts. According to the Hinkle Charitable Foundation, “idling an engine forces it to operate in a very inefficient and gasoline-rich mode that, over time, can degrade the engine’s performance and reduce mileage.”

So instead of hitting the “start engine” button before you’ve left the house, start your vehicle the old fashioned way.
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post #2 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 05:20 AM
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What a load of hooey.


First, they cite non-scientific sources for scientific information.
Second, they don't even bother to check their facts to see if they make sense.
And third, they only discuss environmental factors and not mechanical ones.


To wit: One pound of CO2, at room temp would occupy just shy of 3000 gallons, or 400 cubic feet, give or take. You'd need a jet engine to pump that much volume.

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post #3 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 06:27 AM
 
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I say bull. The easiest way to hurt an engine is to rev it while the oil is cold. I keep my RPM's down around 2,000 until I see the oil temp gauge move and I live in FL.

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post #4 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 06:40 AM
 
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There is no such thing as "global warming".....there never was. Having your car idle is a good thing, if it's cold outside by running the engine you're warming the air in the intake to its optimal temp. Which once you start moving, will increase your burn efficiency. Also when the engine is cold the tolerances bewteen moving parts is smaller, if you go straight from a cold engine to 3500rpm getting on the freeway, there is a greater chance for damage.......and not to mention that just about every car manufacturer recommends it.....they are the ones with the paid scientist's and engineers....



And it will be warm when you jump in!
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post #5 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 06:42 AM
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I'm personally a fan of a very short idling type warmup, and then "gently" driving the car until the operating temperatures are reached.

Cold engines have really poor combustion characteristics, so the sooner you can get a bit of load on them, the better it'll warm up. Note: I'm not advocating going out and banging through the gears at redline to warm it up, but drive it slowly and GENTLY until it's at operating temperature. This is especially important for the gearbox and its synchronisers.

Regardless whether it's carbed or EFI'd, in order to get a cold engine started and running requires a pig rich mixture, which doesn't do the rings & cylinders, lube oil, catalytic converters, etc. any favors. And sitting there idling isn't doing anything to help the gearbox warm up, either.

We could probably take some lessons in warmup from the large industrial engine companies, who require jacket water heaters, lube oil heaters, and prelube systems for their standby diesel generators, fire pumps, etc. which are required to start and take full load in 30 seconds or less. Both coolant & oil are preheated to 150F (+), and when the start signal is issued, the engine is prelubed for 5-10 seconds, then the starter kicks in.

I'm a big believer in prelube systems for cars that sit for long periods, and am going to incorporate such a system for my 550, and may put a lube oil heater in the dry sump oil tank as well.

(My views are based on 6 years in field engineering & packaging for that company that builds the big yellow engines, and 2 years with one of its competitors in their central R&D)

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post #6 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 06:50 AM Thread Starter
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John (and others) well written, I think you all are spot on.

I have to believe the article was written by

1. young, female "reporter" with no mechanical aptitude or interest in combustion egines
2. eco tree hugger type, drives a Prius
3. liberal, Democrat party community organizer

As Wetpet says, don't believe everything you read on teh Internet
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post #7 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer58 View Post
What a load of hooey.


First, they cite non-scientific sources for scientific information.
Second, they don't even bother to check their facts to see if they make sense.
And third, they only discuss environmental factors and not mechanical ones.


To wit: One pound of CO2, at room temp would occupy just shy of 3000 gallons, or 400 cubic feet, give or take. You'd need a jet engine to pump that much volume.
Not that I agree with the environmental stuff, but when checking numbers, check your numbers. 1 pound of CO2 is roughly 8.7 cu ft or 65 gallons at standard conditions.


As for warming up a car,


"When starting the engine, be ready to drive immediately. Drive the vehicle at moderate speeds and avoid engine speeds above 4200 rpm during the first 5 minutes. Do not let the engine idle to warm up."


That my F-Life friends is a direct quote from the owner's manual of my 07 Porsche.

If you are going to tell someone how to remove a bolt you should at least know which way to turn the wrench.
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post #8 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by john85QV View Post
Not that I agree with the environmental stuff, but when checking numbers, check your numbers. 1 pound of CO2 is roughly 8.7 cu ft or 65 gallons at standard conditions.
Yup, I was too fast punching numbers on the calculator.


Cribb, I'll have to rely on you to say the mass flow rate out of a tailpipe.

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post #9 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer58 View Post
Yup, I was too fast punching numbers on the calculator.


Cribb, I'll have to rely on you to say the mass flow rate out of a tailpipe.
From what I recall (dangerous assumption), the mass flow rate out of an engine is roughly the same as the mass flow rate into the engine. The volume coming out of the car is much larger due to expansion from increased temperature of combustion.

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post #10 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 09:06 AM
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If you run the numbers for a 5L engine idling at 1000 rpm the maximum amount of CO2 it could put out would be around 0.36 lbs every 10 sec. That assumes air is ingested at standard conditions and no pressure loss (suction) in the intake runners. The engine would ingest about 1.08 lbs of air every 10 seconds which would contain 0.25 lbs of O2. Assuming all O2 was converted to CO2, and since a molecule of CO2 weights 1.44 time that of O2, 0.25 x 1.44 = 0.36. So, while the number stated above was off, it wasn't crazy off.


Someone want to check my numbers?


Volume really isn't the issue since the exhaust cool off quickly when dispersed into the atmosphere.

If you are going to tell someone how to remove a bolt you should at least know which way to turn the wrench.
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post #11 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 09:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
I'm personally a fan of a very short idling type warmup, and then "gently" driving the car until the operating temperatures are reached.....
As am I.

1. My '83 US-spec 308 GTS came with a cold idle valve which boosts idle speed to 2,800 rpm until the engine warms a little. It drove me nuts to hear the engine idle that high and I disabled the valve. I do wonder though if the valve actually helps engine longevity by warming it more quickly (which is the intent of the valve). I am skeptical. I just figure easy driving at low rpm till the engine warms has the same effect.

2. I have always wondered what the gas volume is coming out of a tailpipe. What is the cubic feet per minute coming out of the tailpipes of, say, my 2.9 L V8 engine spinning at redline (7,750 rpm)?

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post #12 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 09:35 AM
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With my 355 F1, I have found that 5-7 minutes of idle warm up to be very beneficial. Without the warm up, the car shifts like crap. When warmed up, it's fantastic.

This is often a hot topic (no pun intended).

I say do what works for you
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post #13 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 10:14 AM
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post #14 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 10:20 AM
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As soon as the idle drops initially from its 1400 rpm starting point, I am off and driving gently until oil temperature reaches ~160 F. By far the easiest on the mechanicals and ensures all the parts warm up at the same time. Idling only warms up the engine.

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post #15 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 11:29 AM
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I'm always cognizant to let the AAA cells warm up before I romp on the Tesla! ROFL....
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post #16 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 12:52 PM
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post #17 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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Funny Dave. I drove a Tesla S yesterday. Wasn't impressed enough to shell out $130,000+ the 6% sales tax. If I want heat or a/c, I don't want to worry about mileage drain.
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post #18 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
Idling only warms up the engine.
I respectfully disagree. Heat Transfer? I've proven that the gearbox performs much better after a 5-7 minute idle warm up.
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post #19 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 02:46 PM
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I start it up pull it out of the garage let idle a few minutes, shut it down let it heat soak. Drive off when I'm ready. I always get delayed for leaving

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post #20 of 29 Old 01-12-2015, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
As soon as the idle drops initially from its 1400 rpm starting point, I am off and driving gently until oil temperature reaches ~160 F. By far the easiest on the mechanicals and ensures all the parts warm up at the same time. Idling only warms up the engine.
I've stated this before and I stand by it. Lovely to hear Taz' confirmation. My father was an authority in combustion chamber technology and engine design in general. He always claimed this very procedure as the most respectful way to warm up a drive line. Now, abuses apart, if your ritual is to first idle your engine up to temperature and subsequently respecting the due warmup time for the transmission, fine! All good.

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