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post #1 of 58 Old 02-16-2014, 08:27 PM Thread Starter
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I can't help myself

Now I apparently believe the Earth is flat because I don't believe in Global Warming (now changed to be called "Climate Change" since they know the Global Warming thing is a joke).

Secretary of State Kerry lashes out at climate change skeptics | Fox News

Our Secretary of State can kiss my freezing cold arse.

"China and the United States are the biggest sources of emissions of carbon dioxide and other gases that cause the atmosphere to trap solar heat and alter the climate. Scientists say such changes are leading to drought, wildfires, rising sea levels, melting polar ice, plant and animal extinctions and other extreme conditions."

You can't make this shit up. Now as I try to understand this horsehockey, trapping heat in the atmosphere apparently leads to the great lakes being frozen solid??? Can someone explain this to me please?
That is all.
MB

"Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right." - Abraham Lincoln

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post #2 of 58 Old 02-17-2014, 04:53 AM
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Let me explain global cooling, I mean global warming, i mean climate change. yeah, that's it, climate change. It's really quite simple:

Obama proposes $1 billion to prepare for climate change - The Washington Post

A 'Transparent' Obama Administration Foists A Stealth Carbon Tax On The U.S. - Forbes


Power and money. Like everything else.



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post #3 of 58 Old 02-17-2014, 04:57 AM
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If you don't want to read the whole thing, just read the last paragraph, WRITTEN IN 1972!


"Who or what is the Club of Rome?

The organization was founded in 1968 by global elite kingpin David Rockefeller and counts amongst its members some of the most influential power brokers on the planet, including current and former Heads of State, UN bureaucrats , high-level politicians and government officials, diplomats, scientists, economists, and business leaders from around the globe.
The Club of Rome’s 1972 publication The Limits To Growth was a Malthusian blueprint on how the human population needed to be reduced in order to prevent an ecological collapse, which in itself was merely a disguised version of the abhorrent eugenicist ideas that were circulating in the early part of the 20th century and eventually died out with Hitler. The widely discredited population bomb paranoia of the 70′s and 80′s was gradually replaced by the climate change fearmongering that we see the organization pushing today, which again is merely another regurgitation of the eugenics-obsessed policies of the elite.
Prominent members of the Club of Rome include Al Gore and Maurice Strong, both of whom are intimately involved with privately-owned carbon trading groups like the Chicago Climate Exchange, whose multi-million dollar profits are solely reliant on protecting the credibility of the man-made global warming thesis from skeptics who have challenged its legitimacy in light of the Climategate scandal.
On page 75 of their 1990 publication entitled The First Global Revolution, the organization outlined how they would manufacture ecological scares in order to manipulate the public into accepting the imposition of a dictatorial world government run by them.
“In searching for a common enemy against whom we can unite, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill…. All these dangers are caused by human intervention… The real enemy, then, is humanity itself,” states the report, which can be read in full at the end of this article.
The passage appears under a sub headline entitled, “The common enemy of humanity is Man.” "



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post #4 of 58 Old 02-17-2014, 04:59 AM
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post #5 of 58 Old 02-17-2014, 01:04 PM
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I regularly do my bit for global warming with my Bentley: almost 7 litres and a massive turbo = many CO2s.

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post #6 of 58 Old 02-17-2014, 01:12 PM
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I regularly do my bit for global warming with my Bentley: almost 7 litres and a massive turbo = many CO2s.
That lump will heat up a winter garage just by the heat exchange as it cools down!

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post #7 of 58 Old 02-17-2014, 04:02 PM
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Can someone explain this to me please?
That is all.
MB
Sure.

Things are delicate, it's like the statistician who was found dead with his head in the oven and feet in the freezer but on average he was a comfortable 70F......averages aren't all that helpful most of the time.

5 years ago I was on the was for more data side, but the science it pretty well settled at this point...things are getting warmer and will continue to warm another 1-2C ON AVERAGE.

.....the question I have though is "why should I care?"

Some places where people currently live are going to get a lot harder to live in. Some places are going to get a whole lot easier to live in. If you are in a place going down hill I can see why you might want things turned around, but if you are benefiting...well.......

The real problem isn't so much the change it's the rate of change but even then.....5000 years ago the middle east had forests and lush valleys, but that's all been gone for 2000 years and yet people continue to fight over land that is basically worthless if there isn't oil under it.......this will just give more people a reason to fight over nothing I guess.
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post #8 of 58 Old 02-17-2014, 04:38 PM
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Sure.

Things are delicate, it's like the statistician who was found dead with his head in the oven and feet in the freezer but on average he was a comfortable 70F......averages aren't all that helpful most of the time.

5 years ago I was on the was for more data side, but the science it pretty well settled at this point...things are getting warmer and will continue to warm another 1-2C ON AVERAGE.

.....the question I have though is "why should I care?"

Some places where people currently live are going to get a lot harder to live in. Some places are going to get a whole lot easier to live in. If you are in a place going down hill I can see why you might want things turned around, but if you are benefiting...well.......

The real problem isn't so much the change it's the rate of change but even then.....5000 years ago the middle east had forests and lush valleys, but that's all been gone for 2000 years and yet people continue to fight over land that is basically worthless if there isn't oil under it.......this will just give more people a reason to fight over nothing I guess.



You fail to mention that for most of Earths history the climate was extremely unstable, huge temperature shifts over just a few years. For most of Earths history it was uninhabitable. Mans (and most other animal life) stay here has been during a very brief period of climate stability. If it is in fact becoming unstable again, did we cause it? Can we prevent it? I seriously doubt both.


One thing about which there is absolute scientific fact. Earths climate has always been in flux. The question remains are we capable of changing it for better or worse? I think we feel ourselves a little too important in the overall scheme of things to believe so. Nature is a force few fully grasp the power of. It can fling mankind off the end of her finger without a second thought and will do so if we become too much bother.
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post #9 of 58 Old 02-18-2014, 04:36 AM
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You fail to mention that for most of Earths history the climate was extremely unstable, huge temperature shifts over just a few years.
That's what I meant by "Things are delicate,".......climate is very complicated.

We can say for certain that the CO2 levels are going up and that rise is caused by humans.

We can say for certain that CO2 traps heat in the atmosphere, we've know that for 100+ years now.

We can say for certain that CO2 can account for a maximum of about 5C of average temp and we currently have about 3C worth.

We can say for certain that the ph of the oceans is driven mainly by dissolved CO2 and that is driven by temp and concentration in the air.

What that means though is explained mainly by the political religion you subscribe to. The left says the world is ending unless we act now!....which is ridiculous. The right says even the data is shit..... which is just plain ignorant.

The global climate is extremely complex and to date NO ONE has a model that passes even basic attempts at validation like can the model predict today given the data from 50 or 20 or even 10 years ago?...No, they can't.

The UN report did something I can't for the life of me understand and that is average the answers to the various computer models....this BTW also does not validate and is equivalent to grading a math test by surveying the room to see what everyone got then saying the right answer much be an average of that which simply makes no sense at all and tells me politics clouded logic.

Climate's not just climate either, its a collection of micro climates and the microcomputers are driven by all sorts of local factors. The big player tend to be stuff like clearing forest to farm, what crops are planted, what animals are brought in, how much hardscape, etc.

Is CO2 one of them? probably not much.
Does 1-2C matter? not normally but in some place it can.

Climate is delicate and extremely complex.

I read an article the other day about GMOs (genetically modified organisms) where th politics are reversed. On that issue the left is embracing rumor and flat out denying the basic science while the right has embraced the science and accepted GMOs for what they are....a tool to solve a problem.
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post #10 of 58 Old 02-18-2014, 06:38 AM
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Another think tank on human threats:

"Stephen Hawking ... has joined the board of an international think tank devoted to defending humanity from futuristic threats," Fast Company reports. "The Cambridge Project for Existential Risk is a newly founded organization which researches existential threats to humanity such as extreme climate change, artificial intelligence, biotechnology, artificial life, nanotech, and other emerging technologies. Skype cofounder Jaan Tallinn and Cambridge professors Huw Price and Martin Rees founded the project in late 2012."

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post #11 of 58 Old 02-18-2014, 07:20 AM
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My favorite thought on fossil fuels is

The stone age didn't end because people ran out of stones, it ended because we found something better. Likewise the fossil fuel age will only end when we find something better"

Right now on the left there is a huge desire to simply react and "do the right thing".....but most of the suggestions are pretty misguided.

Treaties with limits on fuel use really only serve to transfer the location where the fuel is consumed from developed countries to less developed countries.

Rules banning inefficient incandescent bulbs reduce force silly choices like putting a $20 LED in a closest where it will take about a 300 years to save the extra energy to took to produce......progress.
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post #12 of 58 Old 02-18-2014, 08:39 AM
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My favorite thought on fossil fuels is

The stone age didn't end because people ran out of stones, it ended because we found something better. Likewise the fossil fuel age will only end when we find something better"

Right now on the left there is a huge desire to simply react and "do the right thing".....but most of the suggestions are pretty misguided.

Treaties with limits on fuel use really only serve to transfer the location where the fuel is consumed from developed countries to less developed countries.

Rules banning inefficient incandescent bulbs reduce force silly choices like putting a $20 LED in a closest where it will take about a 300 years to save the extra energy to took to produce......progress.
I grew up in a California that had post apocalyptic air quality. Movie studios did not need to travel to find a location for a futuristic movie. All they needed to do was remove the filters from their cameras. I am an environmentalist but laws and regulations need to pass the smell test and they can't just serve to drive industries to locations that have no standards. The problem is the agencies governing have been taken over by zealots and that has naturally resulted in 2 opposing forces achieving nothing but polarization. Throw in a few politicians with an agenda and we have a mess. It is going on at the State , Federal and Global level. At the global level it is really scary because it is simply a large scale wealth redistribution scheme in my opinion, driven by the ever so enlightened folks at the UN. Little good has been done for some time and I don't see that changing any time soon. The functionaries at all levels seem accountable to no one and that never ends well.

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post #13 of 58 Old 02-18-2014, 10:40 AM
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I grew up in a California that had post apocalyptic air quality. Movie studios did not need to travel to find a location for a futuristic movie. All they needed to do was remove the filters from their cameras. I am an environmentalist but laws and regulations need to pass the smell test and they can't just serve to drive industries to locations that have no standards. The problem is the agencies governing have been taken over by zealots and that has naturally resulted in 2 opposing forces achieving nothing but polarization. Throw in a few politicians with an agenda and we have a mess. It is going on at the State , Federal and Global level. At the global level it is really scary because it is simply a large scale wealth redistribution scheme in my opinion, driven by the ever so enlightened folks at the UN. Little good has been done for some time and I don't see that changing any time soon. The functionaries at all levels seem accountable to no one and that never ends well.
That all sounds exactly right to me. Caring for the environment is important but pollution transferring schemes don’t help any do that and unfortunately a pretty high % of regulations these days appear to be nothing but transfer schemes of one kind or another.

Hybrid cars are a pretty good example. They have very low point of use pollution but womb to tomb are the worst. Diesels tend to be the highest point of use polluters but by far the lowest on the womb to tomb scale. CFLs are about the best at energy saving in the right applications but also do a great job distributing mercury into the environment and on/off cycles kill them early enough to move womb to tomb below incandescent bulbs even before you talk about proper disposal to contain the Hg.

To a strange world we've entered where environment policy is basically a religion and questioning anything makes to a heretic.
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post #14 of 58 Old 02-18-2014, 11:31 AM
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Hybrid cars are a pretty good example. They have very low point of use pollution but womb to tomb are the worst. Diesels tend to be the highest point of use polluters but by far the lowest on the womb to tomb scale.


Hybrid power is great in many applications but the cars sure aren't there yet. I saw a study a few years ago comparing the enviro impact of a Chevy Suburban to some popular hybrid car. Womb to tomb the Suburban had a lower impact and the cost per mile as I recall was not too different either.


The problem with the enviro movement is that it has been co-opted by the zealots on one hand who are devotees of the philosophy that the end justifies the means and have shown themselves willing to say or do anything to get their way. On the other hand are the hucksters trying for economic or political gain. They are devotees of the same philosophy and both rely heavily on scare tactics to gain followers.
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post #15 of 58 Old 02-18-2014, 12:08 PM
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Hybrid power is great in many applications but the cars sure aren't there yet. I saw a study a few years ago comparing the enviro impact of a Chevy Suburban to some popular hybrid car. Womb to tomb the Suburban had a lower impact and the cost per mile as I recall was not too different either.
That doesn't surprise me. In a place that has a serious pollution issue hybrids might make sense, but better yet is to encourage people not to live in delicate areas like the LA basin and then chose the lowest total impact options.

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The problem with the enviro movement is that it has been co-opted by the zealots on one hand who are devotees of the philosophy that the end justifies the means and have shown themselves willing to say or do anything to get their way. On the other hand are the hucksters trying for economic or political gain. They are devotees of the same philosophy and both rely heavily on scare tactics to gain followers.
Yeah...the biggest obstacle to viable non-fossil fuel options are the environment movements. It turns out that you can't make a change without causing change and we simply can't allow that even though we're insisting on change.
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post #16 of 58 Old 02-18-2014, 12:33 PM
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That doesn't surprise me. In a place that has a serious pollution issue hybrids might make sense, but better yet is to encourage people not to live in delicate areas like the LA basin and then chose the lowest total impact options.





The LA basin was known for air quality issues before the arrival of the white man. Just the place to build a megalopolis.
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post #17 of 58 Old 02-18-2014, 04:32 PM
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Ding Ding. We have a winner!

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At the global level it is really scary because it is simply a large scale wealth redistribution scheme in my opinion, driven by the ever so enlightened folks at the UN.


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post #18 of 58 Old 02-18-2014, 09:23 PM
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LA was called the Valley of Smoke by the local Indians because of the inversion layers.

Climate change is a fact. Humans having anything to do with it is still up for grabs. Actually looks like we are towards the end of one of the rare warm periods to the climatoligists. Glacial period next? Whatever happened to the Global Winter frenzy of the 80s? Same people spouting that one.

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post #19 of 58 Old 02-19-2014, 03:30 AM
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Climate change or not, we'll all be gone long before the earth resets her odometer.
Only one thing to do:
Drive your Ferraris like Capo advises.

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post #20 of 58 Old 02-19-2014, 03:50 AM
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At the global level it is really scary because it is simply a large scale wealth redistribution scheme in my opinion, driven by the ever so enlightened folks at the UN.
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Ding Ding. We have a winner!
That would be the effect but I think the reasoning is a whole lot simpler.

People seem to truly NEED something to believe in. Atheism/Agnosticism is the fastest growing religious believe system in the history of humanity and now accounts for about 20% for the world. The rate is higher in Europe and on the left in the US.....and I think a lot of people have simply replaced traditional religion with an informal form of humanism/environmentalism and take positions based on what is "right" vs what makes sense.
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