individualism vs groupism - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 12 Old 08-15-2004, 10:16 PM Thread Starter
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individualism vs groupism

I would like to discuss this after having done it just a few days ago. The converstation got my blood level up a bit as the person wouldn't really listen to my opinion or let me explain myself.

I think that a moderate level of the two mixed is ideal. For a society to function there has to be a level of conforming. Too much individualism will only lead to selfishness. The word itself focuses on the person and I believe lends itself to a ME, ME, ME attitude. The more this develops the less a person cares about others. Furthermore, in a society with a large focus on the individual there comes a point where the person is always comparing themself with others. He has brand X so I have to get brand Y to be different.

In a group society however a person realizes they are part of that society and some things are not acceptable. The person has to act more accordingly to the group and not how they see fits them. It can reduce the persons individual expression (ie wearing a uniform to school vs whatever the person desires) but this does not mean the person has become like everyone else and therefore "boring." The person is still an independent thinker with ideas. I use shopping as an example because it is a clear example of the two different ideas. In the conformist society everyone is suppose to be similar so when my friend has brand X I get brand X and then the next person does and so on.

The shopping example is a reflection of the different ways of living (ie a Spanish style house is a reflection of their culture not their culture iteself).

Now what I think and what the person never let me say. Conforming to a set of unwritten rules in a society is benefical even though the person may lose some freedom and may not like some of the rules. It is for the great good of all not themself. But they can still express themself individually by wearing what they want, reading what they want, listening to the music they want etc but it doesn't mean they can have a party until 4AM while everyone else is trying to sleep. It means realizing we are all part of this world and what is done by one effects the surrounding others.

It is the "F off, I'm going to do what I want (individual)" and the "you can't think that (group)" attitudes that need to go from both but never will.
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post #2 of 12 Old 08-15-2004, 10:27 PM Thread Starter
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post #3 of 12 Old 08-15-2004, 10:43 PM
 
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We call this: 'normen en waarden'...

...I understand exactly what you mean.
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post #4 of 12 Old 08-16-2004, 04:27 AM
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Enzo250GTO, Agree. There always has to be a balance between the two (ying and yang). Otherwise chaos will rule.
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post #5 of 12 Old 08-16-2004, 09:37 AM
 
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You should read Kant's categorical imperative. The good of the whole out way the needs of the few. It still takes the individuals needs into account but it's a very strong argument. It is flawed, as most human theory is, but is still valid in my opinion.

If memory serves me correctly he also wrote it when he was only twelve or thirteen.
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post #6 of 12 Old 08-17-2004, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
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Charles,

Thanks for the suggestion. Now to make this topic a little more political. Do these points lend themself to a specific political party? Is one view liberal and the other conservative?
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post #7 of 12 Old 08-17-2004, 06:42 PM
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Me, I am an individual. I care not for groupthink nor what is best for the collective. Will the collective buy me a Ferrari? My greed has created paychecks for my employees. The collective produces not wealth but only takes the fruit of my labor.

The peace loving Europeans think the intelligentsia should control the individual. Let each take their own risk and live or die by their choice. Mr. Ferrari had an idea. He made his cars because he knew what was best for him.

Long live Capitalism and death to socialism.

8)

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post #8 of 12 Old 08-18-2004, 12:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
Me, I am an individual. I care not for groupthink nor what is best for the collective. Will the collective buy me a Ferrari? My greed has created paychecks for my employees. The collective produces not wealth but only takes the fruit of my labor.
And that is why the middle class is rapidly disappearing. What is the difference in pay scale of the lowest wage employee and highest wage employee in your company or any American company? Staggering. Why? Because manual labor is seen as "low work" when it is necessary. Trash would pile high in my office if we didn't have a janitor, they are necessary role in society yet in the Western mind few appreciate this, IMO.

To hell with socialism, cut that crap out. No one here is talking about socialism.

It is possible to have capitalism without greed and to have capitalism and spread the wealth more evenly. The result is a higher standard of living for ALL, even Bart with his 550 Beast. That is the idea of groupism and great good. I'm not for the government taking my money and spending it on useless programs.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could drive your Ferrari and not worry about vandalism? Drive in any neighborhood without worrying about being mugged? Watch a movie without a cell phone ringing? Re-read the 1st post and you'll see what I'm getting at.
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post #9 of 12 Old 08-19-2004, 07:19 PM
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Middle class disappearing? Are you Nuts? During the last century, we were able to take millions and billions of people from the poverty level and gave them food, clothing, & shelter. Do you think the average person in 1904 lived a better life than the average person living today worldwide?

I pay more to someone who can read and write than the person I hired to empty my thrash. I can teach that person in 10 minutes. Do you think I should pay the same?

Capitalism is greed. My greed is to provide my family. I grow the wheat in Kansas to feed the New Yorkers not to be nice and give it to them for free but at the highest price to provide for my family.

What he is asking is to be civilized.

8)

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post #10 of 12 Old 08-22-2004, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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Bart,

You make excellent points. I am not saying pay your workers the same wages. I'm saying reduce the pay scale gap in companies (some nations do). What I'm saying is the wealth could be distributed more evenly than it is now and the upper class would still be upper and have more money than the majority but the middle class would be huge (and yes I do believe it is getting smaller now) and very well off. Just my opinion really after seeing both sides of the spectrum.
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post #11 of 12 Old 08-23-2004, 10:14 PM
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Yes, have the government reduce the wages I pay in the name of fairness. That way I can pay the janitors more even if they are not worth it.

You are why the East is a failure. Paid people just because they are people, not because they work and make a profit. Give everyone a “JUST” wage. Gee, I must be nice to all. Take from the workers to give to the non-workers.

:nuts:

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post #12 of 12 Old 08-24-2004, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
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LOL, yeah I had something to do with the East failure, BTW what East are you talking about?

Who said anything about the government forcing this to happen? Did it ever occur to you this [reducing the wage gap] could be done socially not via the government? What is companies started paying their CEOs 1/100 of what they make and distributing this among the lower/middle ranks of the company? Seem like their employees would then have more spending cash. Yes the trickle down effect, it can work, just not in a culture that is always concerned with having more their neighbor and not being content with what they have.
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