Debate # 2 ( Music ) - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 23 Old 07-25-2013, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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Debate # 2 ( Music )

“In all debates, let truth be thy aim, not victory, or an unjust interest.”


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2nd Debate

Why is it that some of the best musicians in history
have come from the UK?

360 Modena ( asked in another thread )


I saw the above question & thought it worthy of debate.....
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post #2 of 23 Old 07-25-2013, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotthreesixty View Post
“In all debates, let truth be thy aim, not victory, or an unjust interest.”


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2nd Debate

Why is it that some of the best musicians in history
have come from the UK?

360 Modena ( asked in another thread )


I saw the above question & thought it worthy of debate.....
No debate in my opinion!

Best rock and roll musicians in history emanated from the UK!

US contributions:

Country, Rap, Motown
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post #3 of 23 Old 07-25-2013, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 360 Modena View Post
No debate in my opinion!

Best rock and roll musicians in history emanated from the UK!

US contributions:

Country, Rap, Motown
Maybe debate is too strong a title here?
Although debate can loosly be defined as open to discussion. Or in the phrase be open to debate would mean unproven and requiring further discussion:
Anyway you posed the question & don`t want to talk about it?
Howcome in the Eurovision song contest for example the UK generally comes last then?
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post #4 of 23 Old 07-25-2013, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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Another point maybe worth interjecting here is the emanated from ( originated from ) assertion.
Most of the top UK musicians cite the likes of Muddy Waters, B.B.King, Chuck Berry, Elvis etc as their main influences.
So maybe the USA needs a mention here?
Don`t get me wrong, I personally think the UK rules the airwaves, but surely it`s worthy of discussion.

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post #5 of 23 Old 07-25-2013, 03:07 PM
 
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Would have some thoughts but as music is not my topic and currently I'm not having all hands on deck about this guess I skip the debating.

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post #6 of 23 Old 07-25-2013, 04:23 PM
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Put another way, MOST of my favorite musicians and bands gave been from the UK.

I agree, so much rain they must have been able to practice their craft.

I've never been a fan of Elvis, but understand his influence and cache.
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post #7 of 23 Old 07-25-2013, 04:32 PM Thread Starter
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Some might argue that if you took the UK & USA out of the equation then popular music ( POP ) would never have evolved?
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post #8 of 23 Old 07-25-2013, 05:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 360 Modena View Post
No debate in my opinion!

Best rock and roll musicians in history emanated from the UK!

US contributions:

Country, Rap, Motown
You forget Soul from the US!!!

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Some might argue that if you took the UK & USA out of the equation then popular music ( POP ) would never have evolved?
the mainstream played nowadays is god awful

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post #9 of 23 Old 07-25-2013, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
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You forget Soul from the US!!!



the mainstream played nowadays is god awful
To be fair to 360 Modena Motown was Soul

Agreed re: mainstream observation...


I was thinking this guy kickstarted a generation also....

Bob Dylan, an American musician, singer-songwriter, record producer, artist, and writer. He has been an influential figure in popular music and culture for more than five decades.
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post #10 of 23 Old 07-26-2013, 08:03 AM
 
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To be fair to 360 Modena Motown was Soul

Agreed re: mainstream observation...


I was thinking this guy kickstarted a generation also....

Bob Dylan, an American musician, singer-songwriter, record producer, artist, and writer. He has been an influential figure in popular music and culture for more than five decades.
360 said a record company so I didn't realise that, I thought he meant Detroit area musicians, for example sam cooke was from chicago and nat cole was from the south lol.

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post #11 of 23 Old 07-26-2013, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
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360 said a record company so I didn't realise that, I thought he meant Detroit area musicians, for example sam cooke was from chicago and nat cole was from the south lol.
No problem...

Good to see you getting involved Will
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post #12 of 23 Old 07-26-2013, 08:44 AM
 
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No problem...

Good to see you getting involved Will
Mick, I like your discussions

More will chime in eventually, the forum can go inactive at times, has more activity than other times. I find that during the summer, generally forums are quieter (some others i attend to are lol)

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post #13 of 23 Old 07-26-2013, 02:31 PM
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360 said a record company so I didn't realise that, I thought he meant Detroit area musicians, for example sam cooke was from chicago and nat cole was from the south lol.
Will, spot on. I wasn't thinking of SOUL.

I draw a distinction between Motown and Soul.

Ah, James Brown, may he R.I.P.

But to my point, I think UK has produced the best Rock and Roll bands ever.

Not a Dylan fan either.

I can't understand half the lyrics he sings at times.

I hope there aren't any US music icons on this site as I don't want to intentionally insult a fellow Tifosi.

I'm going to see Ted Nugent in a few weeks (good musician, far right politico, which suits me just fine).
My neighbor is his lead singer/guitarist and touring w/him again (Derek St Holmes, VERY decent, nice guy, great guitarist with a good voice)

Awesome music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1Gj5RSZXMk

Last edited by 360 Modena; 07-26-2013 at 02:42 PM.
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post #14 of 23 Old 07-26-2013, 03:28 PM
 
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I find that during the summer, generally forums are quieter (some others i attend to are lol)
Most of them are quieter. But not just forums, everything which connects people on the internet are much quieter during summer than in any other seasons due to holidays, hanging out with friends and so on. As well as I can't sit at the computer which generates more and more heat all the time, air conditioning has already got enough work fighting the outside's 30+ Celsius (or 90+ Fahrenheit)

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post #15 of 23 Old 07-26-2013, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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As well as I can't sit at the computer which generates more and more heat all the time, air conditioning has already got enough work fighting the outside's 30+ Celsius (or 90+ Fahrenheit)

Did you know?

Celsius is named after the Swedish astronomer Anders Celsius (1701–1744)

And...

Fahrenheit is named after the Polish-born Dutch physicist Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit
(1686–1736)

I did lol
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post #16 of 23 Old 07-27-2013, 06:15 AM
 
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Most of them are quieter. But not just forums, everything which connects people on the internet are much quieter during summer than in any other seasons due to holidays, hanging out with friends and so on. As well as I can't sit at the computer which generates more and more heat all the time, air conditioning has already got enough work fighting the outside's 30+ Celsius (or 90+ Fahrenheit)
Lol, my laptop was hitting 110c, and was averaging around 80-90c during the heatwave we had recently.

Had to clean the fans and apply a lot of thermal paste to get the solution sorted (professional ofc) and now it averages around 60c.

It made my room so hot LOL, my friend came into the room and started sweating and asked why it was so hot, I just laughed.

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post #17 of 23 Old 07-27-2013, 07:42 AM
 
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Did you know?

Celsius is named after the Swedish astronomer Anders Celsius (1701–1744)

And...

Fahrenheit is named after the Polish-born Dutch physicist Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit
(1686–1736)

I did lol
Yep, still remember that stuff from last year's Geography lessons though it wasn't my favourite subject of all lol.

@Will: I can't even imagine what could have happened to the computer lately if we don't have AC here, outside's temperature hit the 39 Celsius in some places, even more at the Hungaroring on the sunny parking areas...I rather stay home in the average 23-24 Celsius and watching F1 comfortably surrounded by cool drinks than getting out to the track for the welcoming heat, crowd and so on.

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post #18 of 23 Old 07-28-2013, 08:04 AM
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I have a question. Why is it that when singers from the UK are singing their accent is not noticeable, but when they speak it is.
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post #19 of 23 Old 07-28-2013, 08:40 AM
 
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I have a question. Why is it that when singers from the UK are singing their accent is not noticeable, but when they speak it is.
Some are taught to sing Americanized.

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post #20 of 23 Old 07-28-2013, 08:46 AM Thread Starter
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I have a question. Why is it that when singers from the UK are singing their accent is not noticeable, but when they speak it is.
Good question netman & I spotted this interesting answer on a blog
Sorry for lengthy reply....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are several reasons for this. When people sing, their regional accents are obliterated by physiology, phonetics, and the music itself.
In effect, their accents are neutralized. And if they sound American, that’s because the general American accent is fairly neutral itself.
We notice people’s accents more easily when they’re speaking at a normal speed. But singing is not done at normal speed; it’s slower. And it’s also more powerful.
William O. Beeman, a linguist and the chairman of the anthropology department at the University of Minnesota, and Audrey Stottler, a voice teacher at the MacPhail Center for Music in Minneapolis—discussed the physiology of all this in a 2010 television interview.
As they explained, the air pressure used to make sounds is much greater when we sing, and the air passages open up and become larger. So the sound quality is very different.
The result is that when we sing, syllables are longer, vowels get stretched out, and stresses fall differently than in speech. In effect, regional accents disappear.
The linguist David Crystal, writing about this process on his blog, says melody cancels out the intonations of speech, the beat of the music cancels the rhythms of speech, and singers are forced to accent syllables as they’re accented in the music.
And as all singers know, the music forces them to elongate their vowels. A vowel that falls on a sustained note has to be drawn out more than it would be in ordinary speech.
Another effect is that diphthongs in speech are lost in singing.
Take the word “no,” which in British-accented speech has a diphthong (it sounds like “neh-ow”). That diphthong would be difficult to sing, so it becomes more of a neutral, American-sounding “noh.”
What all this adds up to is that in singing, regional accents tend to flatten out. The sounds becomes more neutral or homogeneous, and in fact similar to what a general American accent sounds like.
(In fact, Americans’ accents are flattened when they sing too. The r’s become less sharp and the pronoun “I” is often flattened to more of an “ah.”)
Crystal believes some singers in the UK today are deliberately avoiding an “American” sound and inserting regional accents into their singing.
“It’s perfectly possible for singers to retain an individual accent, if they want to, and many do,” he writes.
But even so, he adds, “in hardly any case do singers use a consistent regional accent throughout the whole song. Mixed accents seem to be the norm.”
Crystal also says that imitation may also play a role when UK singers sound “American,” but not everyone agrees that imitation is involved.
Not much academic research has published on the subject. But one study is available.
Andy Gibson, a New Zealand researcher who studies the sociolinguistics of performance, has concluded that pop singers sound American because it’s easier and more natural to sing with a neutral accent—call it American if you want.
His study, conducted in 2010, found that singers in New Zealand spoke certain words with a distinct “Kiwi” accent, but sang those same words just as Americans would.
Gibson showed that this wasn’t deliberate imitation, as had been suggested previously. The subjects of his study said they didn’t perceive any difference in their speaking and singing voices. They felt they were singing naturally.
Gibson concluded that the sound was automatic—the default accent when singing pop songs. The more neutral, American-sounding accent is simply easier and more natural to sing, he found.
That means that a regional accent will disappear in pop music—unless it’s the deliberate accent of a certain style, as in rap and hip-hop (African-American), Country-Western music (Southern), and reggae (Caribbean).
In the ’60s and ’70s, some British rock groups were accused of deliberately imitating American pop singers. But if Gibson is right, then the reverse is true—British singers have to make a deliberate effort to sound British.
For example, in 1965 the British group Herman’s Hermits recorded two heavily accented songs. The lead singer, Peter Noone, is from Manchester, but in these two songs he affected an exaggerated cockney accent. The songs were aimed at the American market, then in the grip of the so-called “British Invasion” rock movement.
The songs, “I’m Henery the Eighth, I Am” and “Mrs. Brown You’ve Got a Lovely Daughter,” both became No. 1 hits in the US. But they weren’t even released as singles in Britain.
The relationship between song and speech, music and language, is still being explored. It’s been suggested that perhaps different parts of the brain are involved, since speech impediments (like stuttering or Tourette’s syndrome) often disappear when someone sings.
Of course, people remarked on the homogeneity of singing long before rock-’n'-roll. In the Oct. 1, 1932, issue of the Music Educators Journal, the author T. Campbell Young wrote:
“It is true that the spoken word varies considerably, as the many dialects which are found among the English-speaking nations will prove. It is equally true to say that language, in song, has been standardized to such an extent that it has become universal and homogeneous. It follows naturally that when words and music are allied, the former must be pronounced in such as way as to conform with the accepted principles of good singing.”

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