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post #1 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
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Healthcare reform question?

Under the new Obama universal heathcare reform. If the insurance companies have to cover pre existing conditions and you were young wouldn't you be better off dropping your healthcare insurance and paying the $750 fine for not having insurance? Couldn't you just call your agent on the way to the hospital and buy coverage if you got hurt and then cancel it again as soon as you are healed?

Does anyone know if there are provisions in the healthcare reform bill to prevent this from happening? I don't think I'll be dropping my coverage now but if I was younger than 35 I probably would.

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post #2 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 11:27 AM
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Under the new Obama universal heathcare reform. If the insurance companies have to cover pre existing conditions and you were young wouldn't you be better off dropping your healthcare insurance and paying the $750 fine for not having insurance? Couldn't you just call your agent on the way to the hospital and buy coverage if you got hurt and then cancel it again as soon as you are healed?

Does anyone know if there are provisions in the healthcare reform bill to prevent this from happening? I don't think I'll be dropping my coverage now but if I was younger than 35 I probably would.

Don't know of all the typical loopholes that will/would be employed, but the abound in any human organization even if big business/insurance co.'s run them.

as for < 40 not having insurance, well there was a time that the only insurance I had was VA-Purple [disabled VietNam Vet] coverage, which meant I got head of the line priv. but not much more. and it sucked. Matter of fact, I'm hearing it doesn't give much more in our enlightened times, considering the number of wounded > dead.

Point to all the above is it would be tried by many to not have the coverage but only when it's a bottom line money issue. When coverage can be maintained, via a steady/good-paying job, it is picked up OR [mandatory] by your company.

No one I believe knows what the plan truly means, and I am almost certain, on either side of the aisle, they do not either.

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post #3 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 01:43 PM Thread Starter
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I agree it sure doesn't sound like anyone read the damn thing. All I keep hearing about is how the insurance companies won't be able to excempt pre existing conditions. I've posed this question to a number of people in public forums and no one has been able to answer. I was hoping someone around here would know a staffer or some one connected.
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post #4 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 02:07 PM
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there prob. is someone. What I don't understand, and I know it's a slippy slope, but being denied coverage due to some pre-existing condition is about like saying: "Where would you like me to fire the bullet into you?.....the chest, the head, or a leg to prolong it?"

not very fair when money gets in the way of making a medical 'judgement call'.

Funny, the right claims govt. is making a medical judgement call and at the same time, seems to follow the same argument on either side: Depends on which banner one wants to float.

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post #5 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 02:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Granucci View Post
there prob. is someone. What I don't understand, and I know it's a slippy slope, but being denied coverage due to some pre-existing condition is about like saying: "Where would you like me to fire the bullet into you?.....the chest, the head, or a leg to prolong it?"

not very fair when money gets in the way of making a medical 'judgement call'.

Funny, the right claims govt. is making a medical judgement call and at the same time, seems to follow the same argument on either side: Depends on which banner one wants to float.
Would you expect to be able to buy car insurance after you wrecked your car? Living in MD where car insurance is manditory I can see the merits of everyone being mandated to buy health insurance. I would at least like to see everyone have catastrophic insurance at a minimum. But what I am really trying to find out is if I don't buy insurance under Obama care and pay the $750 per/yr fine can I still buy insurance at any time including after I am hurt? $750 does not seem like much of a penalty to me compared to the cost of health insurance?
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post #6 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 04:12 PM
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With this new health care wouldn't the cost of premiums go down such that the $750 fine + buying insurance later would be more? Meaning the mandatory option is supposed to lower costs. Japan in my opinion has one of the better systems, mandatory, fixed pricing from what I understand and not a lot of government red tape. Jimmy would know more about it.
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post #7 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 04:29 PM
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I may not explain this well, however, ....

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Originally Posted by KKRace View Post
Would you expect to be able to buy car insurance after you wrecked your car? Living in MD where car insurance is manditory I can see the merits of everyone being mandated to buy health insurance. I would at least like to see everyone have catastrophic insurance at a minimum.
Yes, I would expect to be able to buy car insurance after wrecking my car, but I might be expected to pay more until I improve.

Not sure = same in Med. Insurance, but if one believes smokers and obese or druggies/[beer/wine]/substance abuse people should be denied, then NO, but should they get a free ride for me doing the right things while they put a burden on themselves and others and KNOW such: No. They should pay for it.

I would expect risk/behaviour goes with cost IF it can be an item that one can change. and one has been educated....however, there will always be dump people. A free market would say only the strongest survive, and should/would be able to afford the care needed. I, well, I know of many worthy people not there yet where we would benefit to keep such alive.

The 'intent' I believe in the words of 'rights for health care' is that taken the innocent person, heart condition say that they didn't know of or DID but were denied because it is pre-existing [probably from birth] is [to the right] not a RIGHT, is to [the left] a RIGHT. What becomes of that intent is anyone's guess.

Am I choosing who dies, lives then? Yup. Then again, that's even a risk one makes when having children. Very complex in the debate, which is why this is a mess from day one. One cannot legislate morality.

Quote:
But what I am really trying to find out is if I don't buy insurance under Obama care and pay the $750 per/yr fine can I still buy insurance at any time including after I am hurt? $750 does not seem like much of a penalty to me compared to the cost of health insurance?
as for this latter, I don't know. Sort of those dumb legistated items that then gets modified many times over to stop the leak in the dike: Mess.

Once again, it depends on what one wants to legislate, costs, care, both, none....never works. Legislation to me is only laws on the book to throw at someone after they violate such. Good common sense people do good, and buckers, get by and usually still get hammered. The axiom isn't solid but generally plays out well in the long statisical review.

I believe America is at its witts end: Unable to roll back the clock on anything, and only heap on more to make it confused to all. I wish we would just reboot the system after re-loading 'common sense - 101' into the OS.

We'll never see this make sense. And BTW< I believe Mexico, Canada, Aus. UK, France etc. etc. have managed a nice system or common sense approach..I'm exactly sure many will cite examples on either side, but the only thing I see in the mix that is diff. for the US is the Tax costs. America's experiment in freedom is about over. We will become the mix like any nation after a couple hundred years of letting it go rampant. We will evolve into the mix as other nations, but retain the core of what we are: 'free' [NO paradox here], I mean free in the sense we will probably still have the core freedoms but just at a higher cost as other countries who state 'we are the same but.....' [there is a lot of but in there.]

Here is a cases in point that makes us a mess: We still love our slave labour [illegals], and will now have to incorporate them legally. We will lose more in the balanced budget, but it will even out. Here is a set example: I KNOW, for a fact, as we employ several 'legal' types, that are using SSNs of dead people. [we can discuss this later, but jus know that it is happening now]. They pay into the SS System but will NEVER collect. Shoot, many of them pay taxes and never collect as it might mean 'deportation' if they somehow get called on stuff. Matter of fact SEVERAL are using the same SSN across the nation. You think the govt. wants to end this cash-cow stream? NOT. it's what keeps the budget afloat...

These same 'legal' workers work at less pay, and are more abiding than most, [I can spot their driving habits a mile away]. The only health care they get is emergency [in a lot of cases] as insurance is non-affordable nor offered.

So, can a typical legal type, get insurance at the last min. then cancel it? I expect the short answer has been addressed, that it is possible, but will be another finger in the dike at some point.

Final tally in US' mixed up world: The Enron school of ethics and GoldmanSacks school of ethics say if they are allowed to pull off this junk what makes us think it would change from the top let alone the bottom of the pyramid? I'm thinking it will not change. Why, no oversight [say resources here], no desire to stop a cash cow [as long as things flow, who cares], and the endless game of moving on to the next 'thang' which is probably is to have legislaters just think of themselves.

Don't know where this is going....not sure anyone can stop it: Me? I'm numb.

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post #8 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
With this new health care wouldn't the cost of premiums go down such that the $750 fine + buying insurance later would be more? Meaning the mandatory option is supposed to lower costs. Japan in my opinion has one of the better systems, mandatory, fixed pricing from what I understand and not a lot of government red tape. Jimmy would know more about it.
Not sure of Japan, but they are definitely a more Homogenous race [lack of PC term] than about any nation I know and I admire them for such. India has a great similar venue.


We should look to France:
France, I've heard has the highest ranking medical coverage system, in the world per large populace.

BUT, honestly, I do not know for sure.

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post #9 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
With this new health care wouldn't the cost of premiums go down such that the $750 fine + buying insurance later would be more?
Of course! That's how it will work!



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post #10 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 06:09 PM
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Dude, I'm not sure WTF you just said, but i'm pretty sure i disagree with all of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granucci View Post
Yes, I would expect to be able to buy car insurance after wrecking my car, but I might be expected to pay more until I improve.

Not sure = same in Med. Insurance, but if one believes smokers and obese or druggies/[beer/wine]/substance abuse people should be denied, then NO, but should they get a free ride for me doing the right things while they put a burden on themselves and others and KNOW such: No. They should pay for it.

I would expect risk/behaviour goes with cost IF it can be an item that one can change. and one has been educated....however, there will always be dump people. A free market would say only the strongest survive, and should/would be able to afford the care needed. I, well, I know of many worthy people not there yet where we would benefit to keep such alive.

The 'intent' I believe in the words of 'rights for health care' is that taken the innocent person, heart condition say that they didn't know of or DID but were denied because it is pre-existing [probably from birth] is [to the right] not a RIGHT, is to [the left] a RIGHT. What becomes of that intent is anyone's guess.

Am I choosing who dies, lives then? Yup. Then again, that's even a risk one makes when having children. Very complex in the debate, which is why this is a mess from day one. One cannot legislate morality.



as for this latter, I don't know. Sort of those dumb legistated items that then gets modified many times over to stop the leak in the dike: Mess.

Once again, it depends on what one wants to legislate, costs, care, both, none....never works. Legislation to me is only laws on the book to throw at someone after they violate such. Good common sense people do good, and buckers, get by and usually still get hammered. The axiom isn't solid but generally plays out well in the long statisical review.

I believe America is at its witts end: Unable to roll back the clock on anything, and only heap on more to make it confused to all. I wish we would just reboot the system after re-loading 'common sense - 101' into the OS.

We'll never see this make sense. And BTW< I believe Mexico, Canada, Aus. UK, France etc. etc. have managed a nice system or common sense approach..I'm exactly sure many will cite examples on either side, but the only thing I see in the mix that is diff. for the US is the Tax costs. America's experiment in freedom is about over. We will become the mix like any nation after a couple hundred years of letting it go rampant. We will evolve into the mix as other nations, but retain the core of what we are: 'free' [NO paradox here], I mean free in the sense we will probably still have the core freedoms but just at a higher cost as other countries who state 'we are the same but.....' [there is a lot of but in there.]

Here is a cases in point that makes us a mess: We still love our slave labour [illegals], and will now have to incorporate them legally. We will lose more in the balanced budget, but it will even out. Here is a set example: I KNOW, for a fact, as we employ several 'legal' types, that are using SSNs of dead people. [we can discuss this later, but jus know that it is happening now]. They pay into the SS System but will NEVER collect. Shoot, many of them pay taxes and never collect as it might mean 'deportation' if they somehow get called on stuff. Matter of fact SEVERAL are using the same SSN across the nation. You think the govt. wants to end this cash-cow stream? NOT. it's what keeps the budget afloat...

These same 'legal' workers work at less pay, and are more abiding than most, [I can spot their driving habits a mile away]. The only health care they get is emergency [in a lot of cases] as insurance is non-affordable nor offered.

So, can a typical legal type, get insurance at the last min. then cancel it? I expect the short answer has been addressed, that it is possible, but will be another finger in the dike at some point.

Final tally in US' mixed up world: The Enron school of ethics and GoldmanSacks school of ethics say if they are allowed to pull off this junk what makes us think it would change from the top let alone the bottom of the pyramid? I'm thinking it will not change. Why, no oversight [say resources here], no desire to stop a cash cow [as long as things flow, who cares], and the endless game of moving on to the next 'thang' which is probably is to have legislaters just think of themselves.

Don't know where this is going....not sure anyone can stop it: Me? I'm numb.


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post #11 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 08:18 PM
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My ranting

This is such an immense topic that does not limit itself to health care/ insurance alone. I may be putting myself on the butcher block, but what the heck, here it goes.
Problems I see...insurance companies, drug companies, their lobbyists, then the puppet politicians who are the players for greed and power. In other words, the basic foundation of capitalism gone awry and distorted.
This is not a total denial. However, there's definitely something seriously wrong with the society when an average citizen can and will go broke with one major illness or cannot get a decent medical care. This is an irony because I often hear comments like, "we have the best medicine". Maybe so, maybe not. Either ways, things are wrong. Recently, I saw the Frontline program by PBS broadcasting touching this subject on average citizens and their plights. That was really sad and pathetic. I know, there's all kinds of arguments from every viewpoints. But the fundamental truth in USA right now is that one cannot receive adequate medical care if you cannot pay. What kind of a country is it when a pet can get superior care than a human ? Certainly, this situation is not healthy. If you counter-argue and say that this is capitalism, then I don't think you are aware that you are part of that problem.
I have heard all kinds of arguments like why do I have to pay for the poor/lazy citizens, don't tread on me, this is capitalism...what is wrong making money/profits, get out of the kitchen if you don't like it, ad naseum.
I recall a statement from my inorganic chemistry professor at UCLA years ago,...he said BALANCE is the key for chemical equations. This is probably applicable to many things, including this topic. Right now, the system of this society (and others that are following the footsteps of US) on the whole is inbalanced. Years ago, I am sure the US had a larger middle class group with the two extremes at both ends. In other words, roughly, the society was a "bell curved" distribution. My belief is that a healthiy society needs a substantial middle class. The current US is inbalanced in that there's a small, tiny group of grossly affluent individuals and a large group falling below the middle class. At least back in our parents' days, a father's earning gave his family a decent living. Now, well,...quite different, isn't it ? All because of inbalance of wealth distributions, leading to desperations and absurd inequalities.
Since Andrew mentioned my name and the inference to the Japanese health care system, I shall briefly touch upon that. First of all, I am not all for this kind of socialized medicine either. This is not a perfect system, but at least everyone can seek medical care at affordable fees. People here all belong to a nationalized (don't like the word, socialized) health care system. As I stated, the system is full of flaws too, but at least poor or rich, if you are sick, you can seek help without bankruptcy or huge debt that can strain your family. I do understand Canada has similar medical care. The people there seems content with their government service, no ? Why cannot the US learn from their neighbor and adopt a system that would work for them ? I'll stop for now, for this is endless. Comments ? Jimmy
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post #12 of 16 Old 12-04-2009, 10:07 PM
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I work with several Canadians and not all of them are content with their system and quite a few Canadians come to the USA to seek medical care for one reason or another.

This is totally out of my league here and I don't know what the answers are. What I do know is that if I have a life threatening condition, I would rather be in the USA than most places in Asia.

Sure USA health care costs a lot. You want cheap healthcare go to Africa. Of course the chance of you dying is greater but at least it is cheap.

I have Filipino doctors who work for me on the oil rig as medics because they can make more money working for me then they can in a hospital or private practice in the Philippines. Not paramedics or EMTs. Real live doctors with Phd's and everything who know what they are talking about and are good at what they do and I trust them with my life. I've got them basically doing the administrative work that I don't want to do but at least they get paid in dollars instead of chickens or rice. It is what it is. Worldwide people go where the money is. There is a village in the Philippines that is missing their doctor because he's a hundred miles offshore with me. I don't work in Asia because I'd rather work there than 5 miles from my house. I work there because they pay me to.

The USA has the best hospitals in the world all stocked up with the best equipment in the world. Our medical research makes what the folks at Ferrari do look like stone age technology. And you have to staff it. All that shit costs money and you have to make it available to 300 million people.

A Ferrari 360 is about a hundred thousand dollars and if I want to rent one it will cost me about a thousand dollars a day. I have to have a license to drive it and they will want me to sign papers making me responsible for any damage. An MRI machine costs over 2 million dollars and all I have to do to get into one of those is bang my head against the wall really hard and they will throw me in one for $100.

The USA government is at least trying to come up with a solution to make the awsome health care we have more affordable and available for everyone. I applaud them for that. They really are trying.

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post #13 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 01:40 PM
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With respect, i must disagree on a few points.

This statement is just not true in america.

"However, there's definitely something seriously wrong with the society when an average citizen can and will go broke with one major illness or cannot get a decent medical care."

The average citizen will not go broke with one major illness. The average citizen can and usually does get more than decent medical care, they get some of the best in the world. Regardless of their ability to pay or their immigration status.

The most important point is people going bankrupt. If you have enough assets that it matters if you go bankrupt, you have enough assets to afford catastrophic health care insurance. A 5k deductible policy is quite affordable. If you don't have enough assets, bankruptcy is simply a bad credit report for a couple of years. Not much of a price to pay for the slight chance it will happen to you. Bottom line is people just don't protect themselves. That is their problem.

The second is the notion is that you cannot get decent medical care if you cannot pay. The statement that animals get better care than humans in america is just plain inflammatory and obviously untrue. ANY person that needs medical care in america can get it simply by presenting themselves for care. they will receive it. how it gets paid for may be another matter.

This statement is patently false, i'm not sure how you can defend it.

"But the fundamental truth in USA right now is that one cannot receive adequate medical care if you cannot pay."

Your viewing of the TV program frontline is not a good representation of the state of health care availability in the US. Sure, PBS (Liberals) can go dig up dozens of people that have gone bankrupt or have gotten sub standard care. We are a nation of over 300 million people and a small percentage invariably will make poor decisions or be shafted by the system. I'm sure we could do a similar program in any country in the world. see my first two paragraphs where i explain bankruptcy and access.

This statement is also suspect, you give no backing documentation and the "middle class" is an ever changing description:

"The current US is inbalanced in that there's a small, tiny group of grossly affluent individuals and a large group falling below the middle class."

You may want to go here to start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class

In sum, i think you have a distorted vision of what american society and healthcare is. You seem to me to be regurgitating "information" from the media.

I mean no disrespect, but i encourage you to read some other sources.

I do agree with this though:

"insurance companies, drug companies, their lobbyists, then the puppet politicians who are the players for greed and power."

This is The primary reason to keep the government out of the health care business. Our nation was founded on limited government and a representative republic with the STATES having most of the power.

The truth about american health care is it is the best. Ask anybody in a foreign country with a rare disease or condition that they want treated and see where their first choice to go is. My guess is most would like to come here for treatment if they could afford it. It is also the most expensive. It need not be as expensive as it is. But please, please, don't give the government any more power. Take it away.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS View Post
This is such an immense topic that does not limit itself to health care/ insurance alone. I may be putting myself on the butcher block, but what the heck, here it goes.
Problems I see...insurance companies, drug companies, their lobbyists, then the puppet politicians who are the players for greed and power. In other words, the basic foundation of capitalism gone awry and distorted.
This is not a total denial. However, there's definitely something seriously wrong with the society when an average citizen can and will go broke with one major illness or cannot get a decent medical care. This is an irony because I often hear comments like, "we have the best medicine". Maybe so, maybe not. Either ways, things are wrong. Recently, I saw the Frontline program by PBS broadcasting touching this subject on average citizens and their plights. That was really sad and pathetic. I know, there's all kinds of arguments from every viewpoints. But the fundamental truth in USA right now is that one cannot receive adequate medical care if you cannot pay. What kind of a country is it when a pet can get superior care than a human ? Certainly, this situation is not healthy. If you counter-argue and say that this is capitalism, then I don't think you are aware that you are part of that problem.
I have heard all kinds of arguments like why do I have to pay for the poor/lazy citizens, don't tread on me, this is capitalism...what is wrong making money/profits, get out of the kitchen if you don't like it, ad naseum.
I recall a statement from my inorganic chemistry professor at UCLA years ago,...he said BALANCE is the key for chemical equations. This is probably applicable to many things, including this topic. Right now, the system of this society (and others that are following the footsteps of US) on the whole is inbalanced. Years ago, I am sure the US had a larger middle class group with the two extremes at both ends. In other words, roughly, the society was a "bell curved" distribution. My belief is that a healthiy society needs a substantial middle class. The current US is inbalanced in that there's a small, tiny group of grossly affluent individuals and a large group falling below the middle class. At least back in our parents' days, a father's earning gave his family a decent living. Now, well,...quite different, isn't it ? All because of inbalance of wealth distributions, leading to desperations and absurd inequalities.
Since Andrew mentioned my name and the inference to the Japanese health care system, I shall briefly touch upon that. First of all, I am not all for this kind of socialized medicine either. This is not a perfect system, but at least everyone can seek medical care at affordable fees. People here all belong to a nationalized (don't like the word, socialized) health care system. As I stated, the system is full of flaws too, but at least poor or rich, if you are sick, you can seek help without bankruptcy or huge debt that can strain your family. I do understand Canada has similar medical care. The people there seems content with their government service, no ? Why cannot the US learn from their neighbor and adopt a system that would work for them ? I'll stop for now, for this is endless. Comments ? Jimmy


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post #14 of 16 Old 12-05-2009, 06:26 PM
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Wetpet, I did not rant, expecting people with different thoughts, to agree or disagree with me. I may be influenced (by liberals' propaganda), but then aren't we all in the same boat, one way or another ? If you are an ultra-conservative, one's favorite may be the FOX media.
I am well aware of your viewpoints. I have heard them before. It is wonderful that you are a believer. Such topics, including religion, politics, and so forth are not topics I wish to soak myself in for obvious reasons. The only reason I made a comment was Andrew's mention of my viewpoint from the outside. Take it just as yet another liberal's rant. w/ smiles Jimmy
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post #15 of 16 Old 12-06-2009, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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I'm confused??? Did anyone answer my question or did this thread get hijacked into a debate on healthcare reform? I was just thinking if there was no way an insurance company could deny me based on pre-existing conditions and I was younger than say 35 and in fair health it wouldn't make any sense for me to buy health insurance until I needed it?

When I was younger I think the only reason I had health insurance was becuase of the fear of getting hurt or diagnosed with something and not being able to buy insurance after the fact. I keep hearing that in the bill the Democrats are working on "No one will be denied insurance or benefits becuase of pre exsisting conditions"?

Young people now under the current system often forgo the purchase of health insurance becuase they are young and in good health and likely to not need it. Under this new plan I think they are taking away the last incentive if I understand it correctly? A large part of paying for this new plan is making the purchase of health insurance "manditory", but to me it seems they might be giving young people a risk free $750 opt out clause.
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post #16 of 16 Old 12-09-2009, 08:34 AM
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Young people don't buy insurance because they believe they are invincible. We all probably felt the same way when we were young (except Wetpet perhaps).

Until young people face a catastrophic illness, or an injury caused by a love triangle, an undected and defective gene, wrap their rice burner around a tree, contract STDs,etc. they will not spend their hard earned money on healthcare. (BTW, none of the aformentioned things happened to me - I dodged those bullets - barely)

The US government will find a way to 'fine' young people who don't/can't afford to buy health insurance by garnishing wages and any tax refunds, or witholding govt-backed student loans, grants, social entitlements, or something more creative.

Who do you think will administer the Plan? It will be the Treasury Department. The same pople who run the Internal Revenue Service. Read the fine print.

Now back to answering the questions by the OP

"If the insurance companies have to cover pre existing conditions and you were young wouldn't you be better off dropping your healthcare insurance and paying the $750"

Answer: YES, but it will probably be indexed and dependent on income and assets. Otherwise, we'd all take the easy road.
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