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post #1 of 36 Old 10-12-2010, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
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206 + Race Engine

One of my most intriguing ideas is to find a 206 GT and combine the lightness of its aluminium body with a bespoke high performance engine. I heard Luigi Chinetti of N.A.R.T. did something of the sort. Is there anybody with experience from upgrading performance on chassis who would like to share some knowledge? Does anybody know of someone who is into building 246 race engines?

Thanks,
Capo

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post #2 of 36 Old 10-12-2010, 02:31 PM
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post #3 of 36 Old 10-12-2010, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
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After some more research I'm thinking as follows: Maybe building a tribute to the official race car 246 GT Group 4 number 2678 is the way forward?

There will have to be a new project within two years and a track Dino project would be excellent. Another idea I've been considering is a track 308 Vetroresina but the Dino idea rules.

Capo

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post #4 of 36 Old 10-12-2010, 02:33 PM Thread Starter
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You may want to PM one of our sponsors here-Competizione and Sports cars. They may be of some help.
Thanks, wetpet!

Capo

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post #5 of 36 Old 10-19-2010, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by il Capolino View Post
After some more research I'm thinking as follows: Maybe building a tribute to the official race car 246 GT Group 4 number 2678 is the way forward?

There will have to be a new project within two years and a track Dino project would be excellent. Another idea I've been considering is a track 308 Vetroresina but the Dino idea rules.

Capo
The vetroresina sounds like the project to engage in.........just saying.
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post #6 of 36 Old 10-20-2010, 07:21 AM Thread Starter
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The vetroresina sounds like the project to engage in.........just saying.
I hear you a1ex, especially after seeing Vitalone's fabulous specimen, damn it looks good!

Depending on how I can accumulate means during the coming two to three years I have my head still full of a broad variety of cars I'd like to own. Here are some examples apart from the previously mentioned. It will probably take a while before it boils down to one of them:

250 GTE 2+2 - It is the only 250 I can afford and I am a big time sucker for its classic interior with the tin dash and big steering wheel. I think it's a supercool laidback V12 cruiser.
360 Berlinetta manual - A lovely modern reliable and agile Ferrari at a decent price. The engine is an 8.500rpm revving masterpiece. All year round capable.
365 BB - A very hot car for very cool men. The engine revs like a Daytona!
Daytona - A classic cool Ferrari with the tremendous bonus of a race-revvy V12. Strong but expensive contender.
330 GTC - Supercool, great size and proportions. I would love a 250 style dash in it though.
330 GT 2+2 - Cool Ferrari at decent price. I would love a 250 style dash in it though.
Scud - It is epic and will put a smile on your face for years to come, winter and summer.
AC MkVI - Classic but brand new AC Cobra full of technical performance upgrades.
911 Turbo Coupé - Brilliant reliable winter sports car but a bit mainstream.
Gallardo Superleggera - Brilliant winter sports car but contaminated by a clientele who prefer testosteron colours. You might be taken for a night club owner. Still I like it!
458 "Scud" - It is going to be very hard to resist but I already have two quite modern Ferrari which will stick with me like faithful pet horses till the end. I'd like to explore away from the ultra modern Ferrari genre.
RR pre-war Phantom Coupé - Magnificent motorcars with irresistible charm and tons of fine class!

If I can manage to own half of these cars in 20 years I shall consider myself a very lucky man. I did not include F40, or any of the other ultra cars from fear of presuming on my future luck. I really like the F40 though...

Well, I shan't bore you anymore with my erratic purchase fantasies.

Salve,
Capo

Salve,
Capo

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post #7 of 36 Old 10-20-2010, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by il Capolino View Post
After some more research I'm thinking as follows: Maybe building a tribute to the official race car 246 GT Group 4 number 2678 is the way forward?

Capo
The question is “what are you after?”.

If you want a replica of an old race car, it sounds like a good plan.

If you are after performance you don’t want 40 year old technology nor do you really want a 2.4 liter engine if you are planning on sticking with naturally aspiration.

A successful project outcome depends mainly on clear goals going in.


Good Luck!
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post #8 of 36 Old 10-20-2010, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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The question is “what are you after?”.

If you want a replica of an old race car, it sounds like a good plan.

If you are after performance you don’t want 40 year old technology nor do you really want a 2.4 liter engine if you are planning on sticking with naturally aspiration.

A successful project outcome depends mainly on clear goals going in.


Good Luck!
You are absolutely right. A clear goal is what I clearly struggle with at the moment. Venting my ideas and sniffing out what's going on at FL is one way of getting there. The most important thing is to keep struggling to make the money roll in; no dough, no show. Another runner-up I am still pondering is a 430 Novitec. I love standard Ferraris but I also have a soft spot for performance modifications.

On the other hand, regarding the possible Dino 206, I would be happy with a regular era-accurate engine tuning (more or less). The light weight body plus upgrades on brakes and suspension would be enough for me. It is already such a fun car.

With time, patience and money my ideas will settle.

Salve,
Capo

Salve,
Capo

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The good news: I'm the pilot

You cannot make life longer but you can make it wider and higher.
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post #9 of 36 Old 10-21-2010, 11:05 AM
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You should be able to get a fabricator to build you a alloy body that could be fit on the 246. There are a couple of places in the UK who should be able to do so.
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post #10 of 36 Old 10-21-2010, 02:56 PM Thread Starter
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You should be able to get a fabricator to build you a alloy body that could be fit on the 246. There are a couple of places in the UK who should be able to do so.
That would be a very good idea! The original body could be left disassembled and untouched and the new body could have group 4 fender width. That would also mean that I wouldn't have to buy another Dino. My 246 GTS would make do and all modifications would be easily swapped back to stock if desired.

A good engine tuning apart from era-accurate means is by increase of displacement with modern forged high performance pistons and connecting rods. It doesn't show and you'll retain the nature of an atmospherically aspirated engine. Supercharging, particularly the exhaust driven kind, can be quite sophisticated engineering and the massively increased torque often requires thorough redesign or reinforcement of the drive train. Increased torque at low rpm is particularly straining.

The thinking- and planning process moves on...

Capo

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post #11 of 36 Old 10-21-2010, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by il Capolino View Post
On the other hand, regarding the possible Dino 206, I would be happy with a regular era-accurate engine tuning (more or less). The light weight body plus upgrades on brakes and suspension would be enough for me.
It is already such a fun car.
A fun car for sure.
My dad have had a 206 gt with a 246 gt engine wich was coming from a Stratos Gr4.
The Engine had High Compression Mahle pistons,Big valves,Big Carbs 44 IDF,Alloy Flywheel,lightweight clutch and specials cams.
240 Hp at the banc.

The 246 Engine block can be mounted on the 206 gearbox but need another clutch bell coming from a Dino 246 tipo L (Dino 246 gt serie 1 ,very hard to find )

The 206 and 246 tipo L have very performante Girling brakes with 3 pistons calipers at the front .They brake much more than the 246 serie M & E (serie 2 & 3) wich have the ATE brand with two pistons calipers.(The servofreno must be in very good condition too.)

I think there are many workshops in Italy wich are accustomed to make Gr4 Stratos engine with 260 Hp.
The Donati Garage (from Switzerland) also often come on tracks in France with tuned 246s & 308s .

Here are pics of the Engine and the 206 gt.
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post #12 of 36 Old 10-21-2010, 03:38 PM Thread Starter
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Daytona73!

That's great information, thanks!

Capo

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Capo

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post #13 of 36 Old 10-22-2010, 08:33 AM
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Here's a dino 2.4 fitted with all the spec (compression, cams, porting, header) I've done on my V12 project.....scary

The 2.4 has a very short stroke.....I'd say a custom crank with a stroke in the 80mm-90mm (basically as long as will fit in the block) should be on your list.....a 90mm stroke will bring you to 3.6 liter.

Once the displacement problem is fixed you'll need air. Good modern profile cams require converting to a shim under bucket set-up, but then you can get the valves open .450"+ so you can get air inot the cyclinders.

Then the problem will be the webers....they really don't flow particularly well...and don't control the fuel mixture all that well either. If you are going for a stock look you could gut then and use shower injectors mountede in the air box and have electronic injection while keeping the carb look.....then you can also use the ecu to fire the distributor and get way better control of spark timing and avdvance.

On the body you could just pull molds and do a composite body? It would probably be cheaper and lighter than any other option and very easy to make replacement panels as track time tends to lead to body repair time.

Oh the fun yuo could have with a 400hp, sub 2000lb 246
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post #14 of 36 Old 10-22-2010, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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Mark, Whooaaah!!

Now we're talking! 3,6l. is a great enhancement. Even 3l.+ is a volume of potential. I'd like to more or less keep the short stroke proportions in order to maintain the revvy character so I might not be able to use all the 90mm stroke capacity. But I definitely like the stroked custom crank option coz I assume it gives you room for a stronger crank shaft design and with greater oil flow - and, it doesn't show. I would assume the cast iron block is good for plenty of power, particularly if revised with increased oil flow. I like carburettors so I'd probably would have to look around for better options. With such extensive modification my idea would likely be to lift the original engine and transmission out and replace it with a custom built engine from a Dino/Stratos specialist with reinforced transmission. That way there is always a way back to stock. I will begin next year with suspension, steering and brakes and take it from there.

Maybe my ideas are clearing a bit after all...

Thanks a lot for the advice!

Salve,
Capo

Salve,
Capo

The bad news: Time flies
The good news: I'm the pilot

You cannot make life longer but you can make it wider and higher.

Last edited by il Capolino; 10-22-2010 at 02:12 PM.
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post #15 of 36 Old 10-22-2010, 04:40 PM
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Mark, Whooaaah!!

Now we're talking! 3,6l. is a great enhancement. Even 3l.+ is a volume of potential. I'd like to more or less keep the short stroke proportions in order to maintain the revvy character so I might not be able to use all the 90mm stroke capacity. But I definitely like the stroked custom crank option coz I assume it gives you room for a stronger crank shaft design and with greater oil flow - and, it doesn't show. I would assume the cast iron block is good for plenty of power, particularly if revised with increased oil flow. I like carburettors so I'd probably would have to look around for better options. With such extensive modification my idea would likely be to lift the original engine and transmission out and replace it with a custom built engine from a Dino/Stratos specialist with reinforced transmission. That way there is always a way back to stock. I will begin next year with suspension, steering and brakes and take it from there.

Maybe my ideas are clearing a bit after all...

Thanks a lot for the advice!

Salve,
Capo
How much rpm are you looking for? A 90mm stroke with fordged pistons should be good for 8000 rpm, 80mm more like 9000.

I really think the issue you're going to have is filling the cylinders. The way I like to do it is see what flow can be had thru the heads first and use that as the guide so if you get x flow and you what y rpm, you can use z stroke.

Are the dino trans's known for problems? If so can you perhaps use a 308 or 328 trans and know it's plenty strong?

On the carbs, I fitted a 911 engine with carbs off a yamaha FZR1000. They are a flat slide CV design, will flow about 135-140 cfm @10" h20 (with a little clean up work) so good to about 335-350 hp or so....and they are cheap, like $100 per set of 4. I think they were 38mm. There are bigger similar carbs off a honda V twin, I forget the model, I think 44mm that could get you to 400hp is you can get the head to flow. There were replacement race carbs out there for both bikes but I don't think they are made any more (everybody has gone efi) so you'd be looking for used and they were rare even in the day with 4 running around $3500 they were just too dear for most to aford but they are better for hp but not as good for drivability....efi gets you both which is why it's so popular.

I got a call just the other day from a buddy I help with his engine design that had instisted on carb, had to have them, wouldn't hear about anything else......he call looking for help specing an efi system You certainly can make carbs work but you limit yourself and make tuning it and keeping it tuned WAY harder.
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post #16 of 36 Old 10-23-2010, 02:06 AM Thread Starter
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I take note Mark!

It seems like the heads are a bottle neck. Yet another reason to have a Dino specialized custom builder do such engine - good experience and proper flow testing and probably efi in gutted carb shells. Driveability is key. Garage Donati, which Daytona73 recommends, make reinforced Dino gearboxes.

At any rate, I am very curious to start with the road holding upgrades first. It feels like the car has potential. I really like the contained size of it, the design and the overall feel.

Thanks again, Mark!
Capo

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post #17 of 36 Old 10-23-2010, 05:28 AM
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I take note Mark!

It seems like the heads are a bottle neck. Yet another reason to have a Dino specialized custom builder do such engine - good experience and proper flow testing and probably efi in gutted carb shells. Driveability is key. Garage Donati, which Daytona73 recommends, make reinforced Dino gearboxes.

At any rate, I am very curious to start with the road holding upgrades first. It feels like the car has potential. I really like the contained size of it, the design and the overall feel.

Thanks again, Mark!
Capo
Sounds like you have a plan. The head flow is almost alway the limiting factor that you need to work around......unless you're willing to be fairly aggressive in the mods you're willing to make to the heads.


On the handling front, I once read that 80-90% of the total gain you can achieve from stock to full race is......the tires. I think this will be you biggest challenge if you want the car to look stockish or even periodish.


On my car I just put on more modern ferrari wheels, but I'm not in love with the look honestly and would prefer to make a set of original looking wheels in an 18" diameter.....but it was way faster, easier and cheaper to just buy wheels and put them on.

Shocks and springs next. Modern performance gas shocks make a huge difference and allow quite a bit stiffer springs to be used without giving up ride quality. I had a set of Ohlins race shocks made and I love them but there are lots of other good options. You can spend a lot of money on shocks so it's important to decide what exactly your plans are so you know what you need to pay for and what you'd never use. My goal was street and autocross so I decided sigle adjustable would be just fine (the fixed stuff is all custom set to my car) but for a full out race effort 4-way exteral adjusters are pretty nice so you don't need to keep re-valving or buy several sets with different valving.....doesn't ably to my application though and ment the difference between $500 each and $2500 each.
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post #18 of 36 Old 10-23-2010, 06:59 AM Thread Starter
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I like the idea of custom made wheels a lot. I never thought of that option. By copying a traditional wheel design but slightly changing the dimensions you will have access to a very exciting range of tyres. It's brilliant and also a unique feature nobody else has!

My origin being Swedish I have a preference for Öhlins. When I had my snow mobiles fitted with fully adjustable Öhlins there was no going back. My dirt bikes shortly got the same upgrades but custom made by Nani Roma. On these light weight vehicles it makes such a difference on how much less of your own gut you need to spill in order to go fast. For cars, I have only upgraded the suspension on my MB G400 Rommel but that was just a simple upgrade in strenght and suspension travel on both springs and shocks. The shocks are huge but conventional Koni oil shocks, main demand being reliability.

I have no doubt that four custom made Öhlins on a fourty year old sports car will make a spectacular difference.

Capo

Salve,
Capo

The bad news: Time flies
The good news: I'm the pilot

You cannot make life longer but you can make it wider and higher.
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post #19 of 36 Old 10-23-2010, 07:47 AM
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I like the idea of custom made wheels a lot. I never thought of that option. By copying a traditional wheel design but slightly changing the dimensions you will have access to a very exciting range of tyres. It's brilliant and also a unique feature nobody else has!
Oh...I'll help you spend your money



Quote:
My origin being Swedish I have a preference for Öhlins. When I had my snow mobiles fitted with fully adjustable Öhlins there was no going back. My dirt bikes shortly got the same upgrades but custom made by Nani Roma. On these light weight vehicles it makes such a difference on how much less of your own gut you need to spill in order to go fast. For cars, I have only upgraded the suspension on my MB G400 Rommel but that was just a simple upgrade in strenght and suspension travel on both springs and shocks. The shocks are huge but conventional Koni oil shocks, main demand being reliability.

I have no doubt that four custom made Öhlins on a fourty year old sports car will make a spectacular difference.

Capo
I had the same experience with Öhlins on a racerace motorcycle.....it was like the bike had 10% more hp becasue I could get on the throttle so much sooner due to the improved grip coming out of the turns. I could not believe the difference. On my 308 I run 450F/400R lb/in springs instead of the stock ...180 lb/in???, the ride is pretty much the same as stock but the stiffer springs let me lower the car an inch and anys a whole loe flatter in corners and the shocks keep the tires on the ground. To me they were worth every cent.
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post #20 of 36 Old 10-23-2010, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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Oh...I'll help you spend your money
------
-That's good Mark, coz I like spending it almost as much as I like making it!
------
I had the same experience with Öhlins on a racerace motorcycle.....it was like the bike had 10% more hp becasue I could get on the throttle so much sooner due to the improved grip coming out of the turns. I could not believe the difference. On my 308 I run 450F/400R lb/in springs instead of the stock ...180 lb/in???, the ride is pretty much the same as stock but the stiffer springs let me lower the car an inch and anys a whole loe flatter in corners and the shocks keep the tires on the ground. To me they were worth every cent.
That's it Mark, You have me convinced. I am ordering custom made Öhlins next year for Dino! Very interesting how the better shocks on your 308 can handle such an increase in spring stiffness. Will you ever be able to ride your 308 with stock suspension again? Is it the same revelation like on a bike? One whole inch of lower ride height with properly working suspension must be a giant leap forward in road holding!!?

This will be the first time I go into experimenting with improvements on a sports car. The modern Ferraris I have are just so good it's difficult to improve on them. They are indeed wonders of dynamic precision. I have had lots of fun doing improvements on bikes and particularly boats and the whole process of it is very fulfulling and adds a new dimension to the hobby as such. I'm looking forward to getting started on Dino but I will concentrate on road holding before power modifications, one thing at the time.

Take care,
Capo

Salve,
Capo

The bad news: Time flies
The good news: I'm the pilot

You cannot make life longer but you can make it wider and higher.
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