Help evaulating '72 Dino 246 GT S/N #03932 - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 15 Old 02-11-2010, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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Help evaulating '72 Dino 246 GT S/N #03932

Hello F-lifers,
I'm evaluating a blue/tan Dino 246 GT (S/N #03932) offered by Fantasy Junction, and would love some help.

http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/...206%20Cylinder

Mechanically, the car looks sound with a recently rebuilt motor backed by plenty of receipts. Physically, the car needs some body restoration work and a paint job. I've got a PPI scheduled for early next week and I'm not against the idea of funding a partial restoration (at least not yet, since I haven't seen the estimate).
There are still a few things about the car I'm unsure of, though:

a. This car is a Euro-spec Dino. How is it different from a US-spec one? And can I assume the car was correctly "converted" for US standards if the car has been registered in the US?

b. The car's interior is tan vinyl. It's the first I've heard of a Ferrari with a vinyl interior. Was that the budget-conscious option in the 70's ? I'm wondering if it makes sense to invest in leather?

c. The car's history is a little spotty. The Dino Register has very little information about the car -- nothing from '72-86, then one owner in the Bay Area in '86, one more record in '90, then nothing. The current owner has had the car since at least '03 (still waiting for confirmation). How much of a concern is spotty history? I'll admit that I'm a little concerned that this was one of those European Dinos that made its way across the Atlantic without its owner's knowledge.

d. The car is missing the tool kit, jack, warning triangle, warranty card and book holder. The dealer estimates replacement cost at $10K-12K (). Personally, I don't need any of these things so long as the car drives well, but I worry that this will affect resale value down the road should I ever decide to let go. How important is it that the car have these things? And do these items increase in cost such that $10K now means $25K in 10 years?

Thank you!
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post #2 of 15 Old 02-11-2010, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdkhopkar View Post
Hello F-lifers,
I'm evaluating a blue/tan Dino 246 GT (S/N #03932) offered by Fantasy Junction, and would love some help.

http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/...206%20Cylinder

Mechanically, the car looks sound with a recently rebuilt motor backed by plenty of receipts. Physically, the car needs some body restoration work and a paint job. I've got a PPI scheduled for early next week and I'm not against the idea of funding a partial restoration (at least not yet, since I haven't seen the estimate).
There are still a few things about the car I'm unsure of, though:

a. This car is a Euro-spec Dino. How is it different from a US-spec one? And can I assume the car was correctly "converted" for US standards if the car has been registered in the US?

b. The car's interior is tan vinyl. It's the first I've heard of a Ferrari with a vinyl interior. Was that the budget-conscious option in the 70's ? I'm wondering if it makes sense to invest in leather?

c. The car's history is a little spotty. The Dino Register has very little information about the car -- nothing from '72-86, then one owner in the Bay Area in '86, one more record in '90, then nothing. The current owner has had the car since at least '03 (still waiting for confirmation). How much of a concern is spotty history? I'll admit that I'm a little concerned that this was one of those European Dinos that made its way across the Atlantic without its owner's knowledge.

d. The car is missing the tool kit, jack, warning triangle, warranty card and book holder. The dealer estimates replacement cost at $10K-12K (). Personally, I don't need any of these things so long as the car drives well, but I worry that this will affect resale value down the road should I ever decide to let go. How important is it that the car have these things? And do these items increase in cost such that $10K now means $25K in 10 years?

Thank you!
Hello Chirag: Can I ask you why you are after a Dino ? That looks like a late Tipo M model. ( I am sure you may know already that there are 206 GT, 246 GTs Tipos L, M, E and GTS models). I think the US owners prefer the US models, right ?
Sorry for asking questions first, instead of answering yours. Back to you. w/ smiles Jimmy
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post #3 of 15 Old 02-11-2010, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdkhopkar View Post
Hello F-lifers,
I'm evaluating a blue/tan Dino 246 GT (S/N #03932) offered by Fantasy Junction, and would love some help.


a. This car is a Euro-spec Dino. How is it different from a US-spec one? And can I assume the car was correctly "converted" for US standards if the car has been registered in the US?

b. The car's interior is tan vinyl. It's the first I've heard of a Ferrari with a vinyl interior. Was that the budget-conscious option in the 70's ? I'm wondering if it makes sense to invest in leather?


Thank you!
The US-spec cars had rectangular side marker lights, indented indicator lights above the front bumpers instead of the flush units of Euro-spec and power was down from 195hp to 180hp thanks to emission control equipment. Dino's had vinyl interiors but I imagine leather was an option.
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post #4 of 15 Old 02-12-2010, 02:14 AM
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What you need to realise is that there are huge variety of things that affect the value, and some people attach greater importance to certain things than others. For instance, there are owners out there that would not even consider the car unless it had original tools and books but they might not care about it driving well. Others don't give a hoot about books but are willing to pay extra for a well maintained one. Some people drive their Dino on a $2k budget a year, some people spend more than $10k a year. If you really want your classic Ferrari to stay the best of the best, it's going to cost you lots of money. If you don't, then the car will slowly start deteriorating until it needs TLC. There's nothing particularly wrong with either approach, they're just different ways of enjoying the car.

I think you always need to find the car that suits YOU. Don't worry about resale so much, we can't predict the future anyway and it all depends on the person that you run into too.

So - you are looking for a good driver and you're shocked by $10k for books and tools. My deduction from the latter is that you're new to the vintage Ferrari scene. Having gone through that process myself in the last 2 years, what I recommend is the following:

1. Be extremely weary of so-called 'driver' cars, unless you know the car personally. A tatty car can mean that someone spent all the money at mechanicals instead of cosmetics, but usually it means that they didn't spend what they should on mechanicals. If there is a decent service record for recent years, including nice regular mileage (i.e. regular use) then that goes a long way in giving you confidence.
2. Electrics are a nightmare if not on the button. Fixing them can become costly and sometimes after you've spent a lot of money it's still coming back. Then the only option is to strip the car and redo all the wiring.
3. Decide what you're buying the car for. Is it a long-term commitment? Then I would go for a car with good history record and as many original parts as possible. Tools and books don't seem important but I've got them with my 330 and I haven't with my Boxer and now I wish I had. I would also seriously think about the restoration that might be needed in future. Plan for it and have realistic expectations about cost. $150k -$200k is a reasonable number to start with, if you really want quality and a ground-up restoration with new interior to original specs. Seems like a lot of money but if it really is your dream car, it might make you happier than a new kitchen and bathroom.
4. If you already know you want a car fully restored at some point, there is a lot to be said for buying a tatty one. It gives a lot of satisfaction to save a car like that. But you will need patience, and again a decent history file is preferable.
5. If you don't want to restore the car nor keep it very long, then only recent history is important. If the car has had regular use, that is a huge relief. Nevertheless, be prepared to front some decent bills. You might get lucky, and when you sell it even make a profit. But be prepared.

When I realised my Boxer wasn't all it should be, about 6 months ago, I had to make the decision: cut and run or restore. The first option was by far the cheapest. But I made the decision to put more money into the car, as I think it deserves it. This is a very personal decision and there is no right or wrong. But the point is that this car was restored in 2007/2008 and it's still not a good car, even though I was I careful semi-experienced buyer. So I advise you to tread carefully.


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post #5 of 15 Old 02-12-2010, 03:04 AM
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+1, Onno ! I was just about to say the same thing. It's just that I am lazy and you can say it better and faster. If I may add a thought or two,...do not get scared away, do your homework (research), and have a clear vision of why you are after a Dino. It is one of those Ferraris that can be enjoyed in motion or stasis. w/ smiles Jimmy

Last edited by Italian Lover; 02-12-2010 at 04:07 AM. Reason: spelling correction
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post #6 of 15 Old 02-12-2010, 04:13 AM
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Well said and pinpointed Onno ! I would like to add the old saying that the price for the best 246 GT in the market may most likely be still much cheaper than restoring a "half way thru" example to same condition...and you can drive it right away !
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post #7 of 15 Old 02-12-2010, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by 212Export View Post
Well said and pinpointed Onno ! I would like to add the old saying that the price for the best 246 GT in the market may most likely be still much cheaper than restoring a "half way thru" example to same condition...and you can drive it right away !
With my experience now, I am definitely in favour of buying not just the best you can find, but buying only when you can find the best! So I fully agree with you.

@Jimmy - it also takes me long to type those e-mails but I was procrastinating @ work...

Better get back to it.


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post #8 of 15 Old 02-12-2010, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you all, especially JazzyO for taking the time to type that long and informative post. You've all given me much food for thought.

As JazzyO deduced (and previous posts gave away), I am new to vintage/classic Ferraris. I've spent some time reading through old threads on this forum, the Buyer's Guides, Michael Sheehan's articles, etc to familiarize myself with various models and the market. But there's no substitute for actually picking a car and evaluating it. Which brings me to the Dino.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS View Post
Hello Chirag: Can I ask you why you are after a Dino ? That looks like a late Tipo M model. ( I am sure you may know already that there are 206 GT, 246 GTs Tipos L, M, E and GTS models). I think the US owners prefer the US models, right ?
Sorry for asking questions first, instead of answering yours. Back to you. w/ smiles Jimmy
Jimmy, to answer your question, I think the Dino is the most beautiful design produced by Pininfarina, and have wanted one since I was a child. The fact that it has an underpowered [by modern standards] V6 only makes it more endearing. (Given today's speed limits, I find it hard to really get into the throttle while driving around in a V-8/V-12, but a V-6 offers plenty of opportunities for enjoyment.)

As for this particular Dino, I confess I assumed it was a Type E because it was produced in '72. How can I differentiate between a Euro-spec'd Type M and Type E?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
3. Decide what you're buying the car for. Is it a long-term commitment? Then I would go for a car with good history record and as many original parts as possible. Tools and books don't seem important but I've got them with my 330 and I haven't with my Boxer and now I wish I had. I would also seriously think about the restoration that might be needed in future. Plan for it and have realistic expectations about cost. $150k -$200k is a reasonable number to start with, if you really want quality and a ground-up restoration with new interior to original specs. Seems like a lot of money but if it really is your dream car, it might make you happier than a new kitchen and bathroom.

Onno
Yes, it will be a long-term commitment. I've been following your Boxer restoration thread, and appreciate how expensive this could get. I've also come to realize that every vintage Ferrari will require some restoration work at some point, which is sort of why a tatty one appeals to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 212Export View Post
Well said and pinpointed Onno ! I would like to add the old saying that the price for the best 246 GT in the market may most likely be still much cheaper than restoring a "half way thru" example to same condition...and you can drive it right away !
Yes, great point. In my head, I keep comparing this Dino's condition to that of the almost-perfect 246 GTS on offer by M. Sheehan. I'm really hoping that this car's mechanical condition matches its service history records, and that the only real issue is body work and paint. I'll suppose I'll know much more about it middle of next week after the PPI. Worst case scenario is that the car is a total disaster and I walk away with some much needed experience and knowledge!


Thanks again and I'll post a follow-up once the PPI is complete.

Chirag
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post #9 of 15 Old 02-12-2010, 11:03 AM
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First of all, Welcome to the possibility of entering the Dino community. It is a very enthusiastic group and there are a LOT of cottage industries providing support and parts availability.

Secondly, Did you know about the free info in the Dino Register? You can search on prospective cars VIN's and see their history. All free.
http://www.dinoregister.com/dr.php
http://www.dinoregister.com/search.php


Thirdly, on to your questions:

a) How is a Euro spec different from USA spec?
The Dino register page http://www.dinoregister.com/production.php requires you scroll down a ways to find it, but it is there


246 Dinos were built in three distinct versions.

1. European versions, or home market cars, were left hand drive cars identified by the front signal lamps which laid flat and blended with the front contour of the coachwork. Clear white lenses were normally fitted. Small round amber signal lamps were also found on the sides of the front fenders. Chassis number was visible from outside the car on a small stamped metal plate fixed inside the windscreen on the pillar near the drivers vent window. Most times, over the years, these plates have been removed or lost. Some later European cars had chassis number stamped on the steering column like the USA versions described below.

2. British versions were identical to the European versions except they had right hand steering controls and were fitted with amber color front signal lenses. Other markets may also have used the amber lenses. After S/N 04830 chassis number stamped on steering column as in USA models described below.

3. USA versions are most easily identified by the front signal lamps which were recessed into the bodywork and their amber lenses stood vertically. In addition to anti pollution equipment fitted to the engine of these cars, rectangular side marker lamps were fitted on the sides at the four corners, the front ones replacing the small round lamp used on European and British versions. Two reflectors were added at the rear of the car on either side of the number plate area. Chassis number is stamped on the steering column and is visible from outside the car through the windscreen.


PS - I started a personal list of the differences between the USA and Euro cars and immediately caught myself recalling more - let me work on this to accomplish the best possible list.

a-2) Was it correctly converted?
No conversion should be necessary from Euro to USA as I believe the DOT/EPA statute of limitations has run out on a Federal level. I'm pretty sure that most States follow this.

b) Vinyl was standard. Leather on my Dino was a $360 option in 1973 (See Sales receipt attached)
Today you have several good options - this is just ONE example and there are others, but it quickly shows that you can get all materials pre-made to change the seats, rear firewall and door panels in leather for 1,995.00 to 2,995.00 (NOTE - gotta scroll ALL the way down to see them)
http://www.superformance.co.uk/a-246/fittings.htm#trim


c) Lots of Euro Dinos made it over, they are actually preferred by many, drive nicer and command a premium. I own one and notice it loves to rev more than my USA version.

d) You are correct, it will affect your resale but I'd think the sundries are more in the range of $12k-$15k.
Dealers tend to retain them because they are so valuable as it is pure profit.

BTW, Since Fantasy Junction and Ferrari Parts afficianado Thomas Shaughnessy work so closely together, I know there are MANY tool kits, pouches, manuals, traingles, etc between them all.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cdkhopkar View Post
Hello F-lifers,
I'm evaluating a blue/tan Dino 246 GT (S/N #03932) offered by Fantasy Junction, and would love some help.

http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/...206%20Cylinder

Mechanically, the car looks sound with a recently rebuilt motor backed by plenty of receipts. Physically, the car needs some body restoration work and a paint job. I've got a PPI scheduled for early next week and I'm not against the idea of funding a partial restoration (at least not yet, since I haven't seen the estimate).
There are still a few things about the car I'm unsure of, though:

a. This car is a Euro-spec Dino. How is it different from a US-spec one? And can I assume the car was correctly "converted" for US standards if the car has been registered in the US?

b. The car's interior is tan vinyl. It's the first I've heard of a Ferrari with a vinyl interior. Was that the budget-conscious option in the 70's ? I'm wondering if it makes sense to invest in leather?

c. The car's history is a little spotty. The Dino Register has very little information about the car -- nothing from '72-86, then one owner in the Bay Area in '86, one more record in '90, then nothing. The current owner has had the car since at least '03 (still waiting for confirmation). How much of a concern is spotty history? I'll admit that I'm a little concerned that this was one of those European Dinos that made its way across the Atlantic without its owner's knowledge.

d. The car is missing the tool kit, jack, warning triangle, warranty card and book holder. The dealer estimates replacement cost at $10K-12K (). Personally, I don't need any of these things so long as the car drives well, but I worry that this will affect resale value down the road should I ever decide to let go. How important is it that the car have these things? And do these items increase in cost such that $10K now means $25K in 10 years?

Thank you!
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post #10 of 15 Old 02-12-2010, 12:36 PM
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Here's the info I have on chassis numbers:
Dino 246 GT Tipo L: 00400 ~ 01116 : 1969 ~ 1971 : # made 357
" Tipo M: 01118 ~ 02130 : 1971 : 506
" Tipo E: 02132 ~ 08518 : 1971 ~ 1974 : 2898
Sounds like you have all your values in place. Let us know if you like this particular Dino.
w/ smiles Jimmy

PS. I have to correct my earlier statement. This car is a Tipo E model. Sorry for my misinformation.

Last edited by Italian Lover; 02-12-2010 at 12:53 PM. Reason: spelling correction
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post #11 of 15 Old 02-12-2010, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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Hi scm246,
I appreciate your detailed response. I've been to the Dino Register looking for information on this particular car, but I never noticed the Production Highlights page. Excellent information there -- thanks for bring it to my attention. Also, very cool original sales receipt!

Chirag
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post #12 of 15 Old 02-12-2010, 12:51 PM
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I have to correct my earlier statement. This is a Tipo E model with the # 03932. Sorry about that. w/ smiles Jimmy
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post #13 of 15 Old 02-12-2010, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the confirmation Jimmy. Incidentally, your black-on-red Dino is my dream configuration. If I proceed with a restoration, I might just copy it.
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post #14 of 15 Old 02-12-2010, 02:01 PM
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Thanks for the confirmation Jimmy. Incidentally, your black-on-red Dino is my dream configuration. If I proceed with a restoration, I might just copy it.
Thank You. Originally, my Dino was yellow. When I bought this car, it was black with tan Daytona like seats. Redid the interior as such. Seats are leather, but I chose black vinyl for the dash. Hope that Dino is what you want. w/ smiles Jimmy
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post #15 of 15 Old 02-16-2011, 12:24 PM
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I am restoring my 73 Dino GTS. Does anyone know where I can find an air/heater box? In addition do the rockers on the car have seams or are they filled in? Thanks Joseph
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