quadravalve in a mondial 8 - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 20 Old 03-30-2008, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
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quadravalve in a mondial 8

Does anyone know if this is possible, and what is needed besides the engine swap. My mondial 8 is mechanical fuel injection. Were the quads the same or what am I looking at. Is this just a bad idea? I can get a used quadravalve for 5k and I'm looking at 10k for a replacement 2 valve v8. If I'm looking at a rebuild anyway, why not upgrade and get the extra ponys.

Thanks

Christian
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post #2 of 20 Old 04-02-2008, 05:18 AM
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Engine Swap

I think you can, but do a quick search on fuel injection. If the Mondial 8 and the QV use the same injectors and same type of Bosch injection) it sounds like an easy swap. I think all Ferrari did was use different cylinder heads and maybe different intake plenum.

Make sure you do plenty of photos and document the procedure. William Taylor is working on a DIY self 3xx/Mondial Book. You can be a contributor.

Good Luck
Charles
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post #3 of 20 Old 04-03-2008, 01:28 PM Thread Starter
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not so easy.....

I just talked to a guy in California who did one of these conversions to a mondial 8. He said you need the ECU's, wire harness, heads, whole intake system +. It went well for him because he was given a mondial 8 and a wreaked mondial quatrovalve to work with at the same time. I only found the engine available. I have since eighty sixed this idea and will possibly opt for a booster system and electronic fuel injection if I feel the power isn't enough. For now I am looking to put her back stock, so I can then find out what else might be wrong with the car.

As far as adding to the book. I'm not sure how I can help. It looks like I'm going to have the work done for me. The cost difference isn't that much when I'm looking at machining and replacing bottom end parts. I don't want to dig all the way down just to find that I need to replace a $4k crank.

I have a thread in the members introduction section with pictures of my car if you want to check that out.

Thank you so much for your response! any other questions are welcome.

Christian
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post #4 of 20 Old 04-10-2008, 07:32 AM
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when you say you only found the engine available, how much of the engine?

From my experience, the only injection parts you will need to change are the intake manifolds for the 4 v heads. The 2v manifold will not match the 4v head. Your K-jetronic fuel distributor should feed the 4v system just fine. The water manifold is also a bit different, so be sure the new engine comes with the crossover pipes.

There is a lot of precedent for converting the K-jet to EFI, but you will still need the manifolds. I personally converted my 4v to Webers with a great deal of success now for 6 years.

There are lots of folks around to help here and there, so have fun and do what you think is best.

rt
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post #5 of 20 Old 04-10-2008, 09:52 AM
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Thanks Russ, I bet the Guys would like to see your carb conversion. It would be a great article for the new DIY Book

Charles
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post #6 of 20 Old 04-10-2008, 01:14 PM Thread Starter
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thanks for the info.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj5 View Post
when you say you only found the engine available, how much of the engine?

From my experience, the only injection parts you will need to change are the intake manifolds for the 4 v heads. The 2v manifold will not match the 4v head. Your K-jetronic fuel distributor should feed the 4v system just fine. The water manifold is also a bit different, so be sure the new engine comes with the crossover pipes.

There is a lot of precedent for converting the K-jet to EFI, but you will still need the manifolds. I personally converted my 4v to Webers with a great deal of success now for 6 years.

There are lots of folks around to help here and there, so have fun and do what you think is best.

rt
I will look into what exactly comes with the engine. My contact is just a broker with contacts.

When you say webers, is that a carb system? what was your motivation for this conversion?

Thanks again

Christian.
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post #7 of 20 Old 04-10-2008, 01:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj5 View Post
when you say you only found the engine available, how much of the engine?

From my experience, the only injection parts you will need to change are the intake manifolds for the 4 v heads. The 2v manifold will not match the 4v head. Your K-jetronic fuel distributor should feed the 4v system just fine. The water manifold is also a bit different, so be sure the new engine comes with the crossover pipes.

There is a lot of precedent for converting the K-jet to EFI, but you will still need the manifolds. I personally converted my 4v to Webers with a great deal of success now for 6 years.

There are lots of folks around to help here and there, so have fun and do what you think is best.

rt
I just found out that the 308 QV engine available is just the longblock only. This doesn't make sense to me. I thought that the bottom end was the same with either the 2v or 4v. Oh, well. I guess that I'm looking at just an ovehaul of what I have.

I have a couple of guys looking for a used 2valve engine for me, however, this is not seeming likely to come to fruition. At least I'm finally figuring out what I have gotten myself into and what my options really are.

Any more ideas and comments are alway welcome.

Thank you so much

Christian
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post #8 of 20 Old 04-10-2008, 01:49 PM
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My reasons for doing this stem from improved long term reliability, the elegantly simple DIY repair requiring no special tools with the improvement in power, throttle response and sheer personality from retrofitting the classic Ferrari OEM induction. This is not an original idea of mine, as the Porsche 911 community has been retrofitting Webers to Bosch K-jet cars (2.7 and 3.0 liter) with great success for years.

The key parts are four beautifully cast manifolds that fit the 3.0qv/328 head from Frank Capo of Modena Engineering in Australia. I know Carobu do business with him, but I found my manifolds at Blackhorse. Be sure to trim and match the stock gaskets to the intake ports. Only a small vacuum tap was needed for the ventilation control system, as the Mondialís ABS brakes do not require a vacuum line in this application. Everything actually just bolts up like it was original. There are now manifolds also available out of Germany for Webers on qv/3.2 heads, with vacuum taps for the earlier power brakes.

Four new commonly available Weber 40DCNF-12s were purchased as well as the large Facet fuel pump used as a replacement for the Ferrari Corona unit. I will make a long development story short by saying one right answer is setting up the Webers with 34mm venturis, 135 main jets, F24 emulsion tubes, 190 air correctors and 53 idles. It of course depends as well on what cams, air filter and exhaust you have. Stock K-jet cams were used, as well as a stock early 308 airbox, which bolted right up. The linkage, was fabricated with parts from Pierce Manifolds and original 308 carb arms. the side scoop was cut and modified to allow a cool air duct to the airbox.

Best chassis dyno numbers obtained was about 242 rear wheel hp, which with common 17% loss correction places it at about 290 flywheel hp (Factory rating of 260). The sound of the 4 valve engine with Webers is simply not comparable to the original Bosch K-jet injected version. It is a magnificent awe-inspiring sound.

This is a very easy retrofit to do for an amateur, requires no special tools, and really adds to my enjoyment of the car.
Hope this is entertaining for some.
best
rt
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post #9 of 20 Old 04-10-2008, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondial8owner View Post
I just found out that the 308 QV engine available is just the longblock only.
To add carbs to the qv longblock would be about $2 - 3K for everything.

Last edited by snj5; 04-10-2008 at 02:40 PM.
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post #10 of 20 Old 04-10-2008, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
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that is truely amazing to me.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj5 View Post
My reasons for doing this stem from improved long term reliability, the elegantly simple DIY repair requiring no special tools with the improvement in power, throttle response and sheer personality from retrofitting the classic Ferrari OEM induction. This is not an original idea of mine, as the Porsche 911 community has been retrofitting Webers to Bosch K-jet cars (2.7 and 3.0 liter) with great success for years.

The key parts are four beautifully cast manifolds that fit the 3.0qv/328 head from Frank Capo of Modena Engineering in Australia. I know Carobu do business with him, but I found my manifolds at Blackhorse. Be sure to trim and match the stock gaskets to the intake ports. Only a small vacuum tap was needed for the ventilation control system, as the Mondialís ABS brakes do not require a vacuum line in this application. Everything actually just bolts up like it was original. There are now manifolds also available out of Germany for Webers on qv/3.2 heads, with vacuum taps for the earlier power brakes.

Four new commonly available Weber 40DCNF-12s were purchased as well as the large Facet fuel pump used as a replacement for the Ferrari Corona unit. I will make a long development story short by saying one right answer is setting up the Webers with 34mm venturis, 135 main jets, F24 emulsion tubes, 190 air correctors and 53 idles. It of course depends as well on what cams, air filter and exhaust you have. Stock K-jet cams were used, as well as a stock early 308 airbox, which bolted right up. The linkage, was fabricated with parts from Pierce Manifolds and original 308 carb arms. the side scoop was cut and modified to allow a cool air duct to the airbox.

Best chassis dyno numbers obtained was about 242 rear wheel hp, which with common 17% loss correction places it at about 290 flywheel hp (Factory rating of 260). The sound of the 4 valve engine with Webers is simply not comparable to the original Bosch K-jet injected version. It is a magnificent awe-inspiring sound.

This is a very easy retrofit to do for an amateur, requires no special tools, and really adds to my enjoyment of the car.
Hope this is entertaining for some.
best
rt
Maybe amateur/beginner is better suited for my situation.

Thank you for this wealth of information.

Do you think the 308 qv is worth doing this to? I really do want the sound to be unique.

If the long block cost is 5k, the retrofit 3k, and then of course the parts for major service parts being 4k (am I wrong on this?). Does this sound correct?
Should I open it all up while I'm in there and machine all the parts also?

I really have no Idea of what I'm doing. I do however believe I can learn along the way and have blast doing it though.

Will the flywheel work off of my 2v with the 4v, or is it rated to low.

I feel kind of stupid right now. But I will press on. I just need to keep asking questions and figure out exactly what I what as finished product before buying a bunch of stuff I can't put together.

Thanks for your time and thoughts. I want to be as proud as you are having done what you've done with your Ferrari.

Do you think mondial is worth this conversion.

If you were in my shoes with this 1982 Mondial 8 (with a rod knock bearing noise) what would you do? Should I just overhaul what I have to get it running to see if there are other issues first, or go for the gusto.

Christian
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post #11 of 20 Old 04-10-2008, 02:55 PM
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At least for me, I'd go with the qv and carbs, but I am biased.
Here is a link to a contents of the entire saga:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/sho...63&postcount=1

Once you have the manifolds, it's really all quite bolt-on. And I've done the Weber jetting determination for you...
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post #12 of 20 Old 04-10-2008, 03:46 PM Thread Starter
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Beautiful everything!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj5 View Post
At least for me, I'd go with the qv and carbs, but I am biased.
Here is a link to a contents of the entire saga:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/sho...63&postcount=1

Once you have the manifolds, it's really all quite bolt-on. And I've done the Weber jetting determination for you...
This is simply awesome! I love having options with this project of mine.
Thanks for all the details and the links.... You have a beautiful Ferrari!

Here is a picture of my 1982
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post #13 of 20 Old 04-10-2008, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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Does all of this fit under the engine lid?
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post #14 of 20 Old 04-10-2008, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondial8owner View Post
Does all of this fit under the engine lid?
Yep. Everything fits.
With the 308 stock airbox it all looks like it came from the factory as the retro-fit is almost all OEM stuff. No special doofers, and any Ferrari mechanic will feel right at home.
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Last edited by snj5; 04-10-2008 at 06:35 PM.
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post #15 of 20 Old 04-24-2008, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj5 View Post
Yep. Everything fits.
With the 308 stock airbox it all looks like it came from the factory as the retro-fit is almost all OEM stuff. No special doofers, and any Ferrari mechanic will feel right at home.
Hey, will the manifolds that fit the 328 qv's work with the 308 qv's heads? Or the two valve 308 heads for that matter?

Thanks for the other pictures also.
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post #16 of 20 Old 04-24-2008, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondial8owner View Post
Hey, will the manifolds that fit the 328 qv's work with the 308 qv's heads? Or the two valve 308 heads for that matter?

Thanks for the other pictures also.
3.2 and 3.0 QV heads are identical, so manifolds cross-fit.
The two valve heads are their own family, and do not cross-fit to the QVs - i.e., the earlier 308 carb manifolds will fit on the 2v injected models.
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post #17 of 20 Old 05-22-2008, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondial8owner View Post
I really do want the sound to be unique.
Here is the sound of a QV engine with Weber carburretors:

http://media.putfile.com/Mondial-rebuild-1
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post #18 of 20 Old 05-22-2008, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj5 View Post
Here is the sound of a QV engine with Weber carburretors:

http://media.putfile.com/Mondial-rebuild-1
That is very awesome!!

Capt. Pete
'79 308 GTS, '82 Jeep CJ7 Jamboree
"Time is what prevents everything from happening all at once."
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post #19 of 20 Old 05-22-2008, 09:39 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj5 View Post
Here is the sound of a QV engine with Weber carburretors:

http://media.putfile.com/Mondial-rebuild-1
Thank you for that! So sweet! I see what you mean.
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post #20 of 20 Old 05-22-2008, 10:32 AM
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And that is with the carbs totally unsync'd with individual barrel flows all over the map from 2 to 10; once the carbs are synchronized all around 5 - 6 the tone will become much smoother and will not have any of the spitting.

It really sounds even better in person.

Here's a few more stills of the engine outside of the car, and without the airbox to show how much room there is to tune and maintain.
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