Removing points,going for Pertronix - Ignition timing - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 19 Old 08-07-2012, 02:28 AM Thread Starter
 
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Removing points,going for Pertronix - Ignition timing

I have bought a set of two Pertronix Ignitor 1 for my 400 GT and was planning to remove the original points. Several benefits in this change I hope.

The ignition timing have to be adjusted after the part change but I have no workshop manual for the car. Can I adjust the ignition the old way,by using a timing lamp/gun and read off on the crank ? I can't seem to see the crank from above,maybe from underneath ? Are there any marks on the crank ? Which spark leads shall I use ? 1 and 7 ?

Arvid
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post #2 of 19 Old 08-07-2012, 08:11 AM
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Arvid- I believe there were 400 GT WSMs available, but if not, here is a 365 GTC/4 manual and, except for dimensions, the two engines, and that of the GT4 2+2, were very similar. Seems like I had one of the 400 GT blue loose leaf manuals at one time, but it may have been a parts manual instead or one for the 400i.

ferrari 365 GTC 4 repair manual | eBay

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post #3 of 19 Old 04-28-2013, 07:26 AM Thread Starter
 
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It took a while but the Pertronix is finally in place and timed to 11 dgr static advance. Fairly straight forward job all in all.
Prior to the job I had a problem that I thought would be solved by new electronic ignition. But it was not.

The right sylinder bank runs colder than the left bank. When meassured with IR the difference is about 30-40 dgr. C. Since the points where worn and had much too small a gap I thought this would be sorted....

Could this be related to something as simlpe as unsyncronized carbs ? Or are one of the coils worn ? If messured,what should the resistance in the coils be ? What about the distributor cap (it looked ok but could be better) ?

It seems strange that this should be because of untuned carbs. The fuel mix screws where fairly similar adjusted between the banks as well.

Any thoughts ?

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post #4 of 19 Old 04-28-2013, 07:40 AM
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Arvid- When was the last time valve clearances were adjusted? Should be checked every 15,000 kms and tends to be ignored because of the pain of removing the the carburetors. Tight exhaust valve clearances will affect the temperature of the head.

For a mixture check, the exhausts on the 400 are completely independent for each bank of six cylinders, with no crossovers, so you should be able to use an exhaust gas sniffer and see if there is a significant difference between the two banks.

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post #5 of 19 Old 04-28-2013, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
 
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It's possible that the valves need adjusting. I have no sertain documentation on when this was done last. I don't like to think of the worst-case-scenarios as a solution but I will have it in mind I will also of course check the Co on the bank and do a syncro of the carbs.

Does anyone know the correct ohm-value for the coils ?

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post #6 of 19 Old 11-21-2013, 12:59 AM
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I' ve quite some experience with adjusting a 400.

All float levels in the carbs should be equal (8mm), higher level means mixer more rich, lower level means leaner mixture. Check idle mixture adjustement. Clean the carbs with pressed air ( remove spray nozzles before cleaning). all carbs should be synchronised in vacuum. Check your spark plugs (what type/make do you use?), wiring and distributor cap distributor caps.

Electronic ignition only makes the sparks stronger, especially at higher revs.
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post #7 of 19 Old 11-21-2013, 09:43 AM
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Also, thinking about it, the critical timing is at 5000 rpm, not idle. Setting the timing for idle is a good start, but it should then be checked at 5000 rpm (same as Daytona,) and adjusted appropriately for 30 degress advance with the appropriate mark on the flywheel.

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post #8 of 19 Old 11-24-2013, 12:07 AM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Terry and Ferrari400 :-)

As long as the idle advance is correct,the 30 degree advance is automatically correct with this electronic set-up. That was my understanding when reading about the product and talking with tech's at Pertronix. But of course,if the cam timing is off this would not be the case for both sylinder banks.

I have adjusted the vacuum,changed the main jets and installed Pertronix. Still there is something lurking underneath the hood.... I have to og deeper. This winter I was hoping to get the valves and timing checked.

I started at the top with the easy parts,should have started at at the other end... Lesson learned.
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post #9 of 19 Old 11-24-2013, 10:54 PM
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Arvid, it's up to you of course but running problems at ldle or low revs is almost always dirt in the carburators. If you remove the idle jets, clean them compressed air (have a good look these are really clean)and also clean the carburators internally with compressed air by blowing through all the channels, is very often the solution to the problems you describe.
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post #10 of 19 Old 11-25-2013, 02:18 AM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks,

Will do :-) It probably would be wise to do the easy stuff first although I fear the problem could be further down in the shadows. Nothing is better than an easy fix though.

The valves really does not sound that bad. They are not absolute quiet but I have no other engine to compare with. Maybe they are ok. I have not checked the camtiming but will have to do so this winter just to get peace of mind.
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post #11 of 19 Old 11-25-2013, 10:51 PM
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I have overhauled the engine of my car completely. The mechanical noise in the heads has reduced dramatically. If the engine of your car is still original, you will have some wear in the valve guides which makes the valves more noisy.
To get the camcovers leakfree on the heads again is a challenge.
If the timing chain at the front of the engine will get a bit longer (like all chaines do), chances are camshaft timing will be a little offset. You don't notice this in running of the engine.
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post #12 of 19 Old 11-26-2013, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrari400 View Post
I have overhauled the engine of my car completely. The mechanical noise in the heads has reduced dramatically. If the engine of your car is still original, you will have some wear in the valve guides which makes the valves more noisy.
To get the camcovers leakfree on the heads again is a challenge.
If the timing chain at the front of the engine will get a bit longer (like all chaines do), chances are camshaft timing will be a little offset. You don't notice this in running of the engine.


That series of engine has the longest timing chain of any Ferrari motor and longer than any other engine I am aware of. It is scheduled for replacement every 25,000 miles due to the excessive stretch experienced over that time. It retards the cams on the left bank so much as a result that cam timing related issues are common.

He has communicated via PM that there is a definite exhaust temp difference from bank to bank and that is a very common symptom of a cam timing problem with that motor.

As with any motor the compression, cam timing and valve adjustment need to be correct then the ignition is tested and last but not least carburation. If a complete and total tune is performed and it is driven until natural degradation begins to set in the carburetor settings are the last to give trouble. Yet when there is a running issue they are almost invariably the first to be tended to. It is not unusual to find the older carbureted motors to have carbs that are nearly worn out from having had so much attention and serious ignition and compression related issues still present.
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post #13 of 19 Old 12-06-2013, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
 
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I have to check the cam timing to rule out this issue. I would then need a workshop manual with the correct spec and pictures.... And this is nowhere to be found at the moment.....

Does any of you have this information either as a pdf file or on paper ? Or maybe a thorrough explenation of the set up via mail or in this thread ?

Thanks :-)
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post #14 of 19 Old 12-06-2013, 10:51 AM
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As far as I can tell, there was not a 400 GT WSM, but there were 400i and 365 GTC/4 WSMs. Between the two, you should be able to find what you want. Here is the 400i WSM.

Ferrari 400i Workshop Repair Manual | eBay

These guys seem to have a GTC/4 WSM reprint, likely in Italian. Not sure if Angelo Wallace did a translation or not. He did for the Daytona and Boxers.

Automotive Workshop and Parts Manuals for European cars

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post #15 of 19 Old 12-06-2013, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Terry,

Hopefully I can use the 400i manual. I think the ingition is different on 400i vs 400GT (9 vs 11 dgr.) So not everything's the same...

If someone knows for certain let me know.
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post #16 of 19 Old 12-06-2013, 08:55 PM
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Arvid- I should have looked, but all the cam timing and ignition timing for the 400 and the 400i is in the owners manuals. Static on the 400i is 8 degs vs 11 for the 400. The 400 OM even tells you to set the intake and exhaust valves (2 each) to .020 for setting the cam timing.

If you do not have 400 GT OM, ferraridatabase.com for free.

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post #17 of 19 Old 12-08-2013, 10:39 PM
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There are marks on the camshaft and the bearing cover, if these are in line timing is perfect. 400i manual tells exactly all about it.

The owners manual is a very good basis for normal maintenance.
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post #18 of 19 Old 12-09-2013, 08:18 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrari400 View Post
There are marks on the camshaft and the bearing cover, if these are in line timing is perfect. 400i manual tells exactly all about it.

The owners manual is a very good basis for normal maintenance.
Thanks,

I have recieved a WS manual and I'm looking forward reading it :-)
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post #19 of 19 Old 05-03-2015, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
 
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It's a while since I planned the work but finally we're almost done. Valve clearance is set as accurate as possible. Almost all where out of spec,some close but mostly to wide.

Timing was also done properly as it was revealed during check that it was off. Cams lined up fine but crank was past its mark. Should be really interesting to drive the car now that everything is timed as it should be. Couldn't be more happy with the timing,it now lines up 100%. But it also took three attempts to get there...

Cam covers where blasted and painted in black wrinkle finish and they freshen up the engine bay a bit. Next up is a general check of Webers and tuning as far I'm capable. I removed the 6mm bolts on the intakerunners and replaced them with 6mm brake caliper bleed screws with rubber caps for easy measurement of wacuum.

Will probably need next week to complete with carbs and ignition but then it should be good for many years.

A

Last edited by Arvid; 05-03-2015 at 11:04 PM. Reason: Adding info
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