[mk e]

Originally Posted by duck.co.za

Now how does the valving work ?
Can you tell the shock guys I'm using a 400 pound spring and the static corner weight is 450 Kg . And they valve them accordingly ?

Form what I understand there is still more art in it then maybe there should be but most shock places have a standard form you fill out with weight, leverage ratios, wheel travel, a few lengths, intended use and such then they plug it into their software and out come the spring and damping rates right are you.........but when I bought mine they also wanted to measure the OEM shock damping rates to help with the starting point, wanted to give me 500 lb front springs (I'm thinking they may have been right about the f/r ratio at least).

The adjusters on single or dual adjustable shocks are the low speed damping only (which refers to how fast the suspension is moving up and down, not necessarily how fast the car is going), the high speed damping is NOT externally adjustable (unless you have fancy 4 way adjustable shocks) and has to be done by the shop.

I've never had to have the high speed damping fixed but I'm not by any means god's gift to driving and tend to figure it's my fault I'm having trouble and spend my time trying to adapt myself to the car rather than mess with the car. KKrace or spang308 or others are probably better sources to trust.

[duck.co.za]

Thanks Mark

[mk e]

Originally Posted by duck.co.za

I've looked at that ? they are only 10" long , so going to require the eye extended by 7" at the back ?

Think it's a better plan to take 6"strokes and put a spacer in them to to reduce the extended length by an inch for the front ?

Ok so single adjusters are most probably more sensible

I'm trying to remember but it seems like the stock rear shocks are 5.5: travel and the front 3.75" travel and it you lower the car at all you'll need less travel. I bought a 4" travel shock for the front and 5" for the rear and lowered the car about an inch, maybe a little less. So I've got way too much travel in the front, but the drop came out about right and the snubbers spot it where it needs to stop going up so that all works good. In back it's about right at the top but I have a touch too much drop and that is way my spring free-floats a bit.

Lots to think about when you're setting up new shocks.

[duck.co.za]

That kind of what I'm worried about , that the shock body will be to long in the front ? I looked on the Ohlins list and I think the shortest stroke in STJ's is 5" ( your front's ) and you are running 7" at the rear

Turns out the guy with 2way adjustable 8100 Penske has sold one shock so only has three ??? Do you think you could run 2way's in the front and 1way adjustable in the rear ??? Or is that just asking for touble ??

[duck.co.za]

Mark you have got me thinking
If the car is dropped 1" , the shocks could be 1" shorter( more or less , wheel to shock motion ratio ) , but what about the droop/drop/ extended shock length ? It would mean in roll the unloaded wheel comes off the ground sooner ?

Can you remember what length springs you used ? QA1 guys seem to use 10"long in the front and 12" at the rear ?

[mk e]

Originally Posted by duck.co.za

That kind of what I'm worried about , that the shock body will be to long in the front ? I looked on the Ohlins list and I think the shortest stroke in STJ's is 5" ( your front's ) and you are running 7" at the rear

no, I have STJ 15400 in front which is 15" long, 4" stroke and stj17500 rear which is 17" long, 5" stroke

[raging soul]

Originally Posted by duck.co.za

Found a set of Penske 7500 single adjusters , they have a 6" stroke , which makes them good for the back and a little long for the front ? As mk e pointed out , they could have a spacer fitted inside the shock to reduce the extended ( full droop ) length

Then I've found a set of Penske 8100 double adjustable with remote canisters for almost the same money ?

Is it worth going with the extra complexity of double adjusters ???

Also interesting is the shock end eye is longer then a QA1 possibly negating the need for a custom eye .

These shocks are secondhand , but if you add up the QA!'s , Verells very neat eye extenders and his bush kit they are very similarly priced

Thoughts ?

ok what are the intentions with the car... race car, weekend track car, street? everyone on fchat gets off on all these fancy looking race parts or thinks they want a race car for the streets. dont ask me how i know ;-)

i have experience with ohlins and penskes although not on a 308. no experience with QA ( which i hear used to be the old carrera company?) i just had my 8000 series penskes refreshed by the factory. Though more affordable today since there is more competition in the race damper market, these were about 6k for a set when first available 10-15 year ago. they recommend rebuilds every 6 months whether u drive the car or not. these are high end dampers and the technician that rebuilt them thinks they are better quality then the popular ohlins which are also beautifully made. so if you really are actually hard core enough then go for it.

double adjuster are the real deal...but they wont do anything for you unless you do a lot of testing or have good data of what happening with the suspension dynamics. Most likely they wont improve the handling for your car unless it was set up for your particular application. for a mid-engine car that are more sensitive to off throttle spinning they can be significant improvement. if you are a "tinker" the set up possibilities are endless.

my 2 cents

rs

[duck.co.za]

Originally Posted by raging soul

ok what are the intentions with the car... race car, weekend track car, street? everyone on fchat gets off on all these fancy looking race parts or thinks they want a race car for the streets. dont ask me how i know ;-)

i have experience with ohlins and penskes although not on a 308. no experience with QA ( which i hear used to be the old carrera company?) i just had my 8000 series penskes refreshed by the factory. Though more affordable today since there is more competition in the race damper market, these were about 6k for a set when first available 10-15 year ago. they recommend rebuilds every 6 months whether u drive the car or not. these are high end dampers and the technician that rebuilt them thinks they are better quality then the popular ohlins which are also beautifully made. so if you really are actually hard core enough then go for it.

double adjuster are the real deal...but they wont do anything for you unless you do a lot of testing or have good data of what happening with the suspension dynamics. Most likely they wont improve the handling for your car unless it was set up for your particular application. for a mid-engine car that are more sensitive to off throttle spinning they can be significant improvement. if you are a "tinker" the set up possibilities are endless.

my 2 cents

rs

Great input Thankyou

It's a street car , with one or two track days ? So probably total overkill . I was just looking at what new QA1's cost plus all the bits to make them work ? ( and I'm not saying there aren't going to be custom bit to make the Penske'd work ) It's not much short of a $1000 plus you still need springs ( you do on the penskes as well )
If I could find the correct length Penske double adjusters for the same money ( but secondhand ) is that not a better option ?
I really like the Ohlins mk e is running , but they seem much harder to find and then you still have to find the correct length ??
The owner rebuildable also appeals to me ? Although that might turn out to be pain as you can fiddle to much .
I like to tinker and get stuff to work so let's see what happens .
Oh and not to knock QA1 at all I think at the price they are brilliant , but a have heard of a few giving problems

[luckydynes]

Guys I'm also just getting into this with 308 #2.

I remember being a bit nervous when I removed the stock springs before 'cause the prelaod amount because of the low rate, but it sounds like they shouldn't have much more than 2"-3" preload if they are in fact 200# springs.

I'm real happy with the QA1 setup on 308#1 but want to do something different with this car ... just not sure what. I have rebuilt Konis to put on it for now that were setup stiffer by Truechoice then I'll take the high mileage beat ones apart and see what I think.

Fact or fiction I don't know: ... a gent at the Porsche club who is FAST was telling me that a rebuilt pair of Bilsteins (built by Bilstein and dyno'd) will be more consistent with each other than a brand new "pair" because a random pair of shocks will never be identical ... just to throw more mud on the wall ... I'm sure the super high end stuff is all dyno'd when built though.

cheers

[luckydynes]

Swapped the front shocks on 308 #2 today. This set had been rebuilt and had the end eye bushings replaced at that time. The rubber was starting to deterioate after a few years but they were better than what I was pulling off.

BUT, the rotted out bushings were putting my ride height close to where I liked at ... with the fresher Koni's I'm up in rally car/off road ride height territory.

I'll pull apart the old shocks and see just how much wall material there is to thread the bodies. 2.5" springs will work fine on them. If I go to that much trouble I'll also make an adapter so I can use a standard urethane end eye bushing instead of the rubber that don't last.

I looked around briefly for threaded sleeves to put on them. The stock Koni body is about 2.150" o.d. ... didn't see anything that would work on it. I don't think I'm going to warm up to this ride height but it is nice being able to drive over curbs I guess

cheers

[reggazz312t]

Pro photo,Louvers,,My car is stripped and it sits high,,like a ford bronco w/no motor,,,So I know I have to do something,,..Im a happy grease monkey reading what the ingenere's post......LuckyDynes,,,,, is # 2 a QV?

[mk e]

Originally Posted by luckydynes

I'll pull apart the old shocks and see just how much wall material there is to thread the bodies. 2.5" springs will work fine on them. If I go to that much trouble I'll also make an adapter so I can use a standard urethane end eye bushing instead of the rubber that don't last.

I looked around briefly for threaded sleeves to put on them. The stock Koni body is about 2.150" o.d. ... didn't see anything that would work on it. I don't think I'm going to warm up to this ride height but it is nice being able to drive over curbs I guess

cheers

I can't find any pics kicking around but way back the first thing I did to my car was fit 2.5: springs to the OEM konis. I just made a set of fitted height aluminum perches that were retained with the original snap ring. I remember actually measuring the spring rates, installed lenght, and free length of the original springs then I figured where the car was sitting vs were I wanted it and it all worked out close enough that I was happy with the first set. I also made up a set of urethane end bushings for them.


.....then I threw them out and bought a proper set of shocks

[mk e]

Originally Posted by luckydynes

Fact or fiction I don't know: ... a gent at the Porsche club who is FAST was telling me that a rebuilt pair of Bilsteins (built by Bilstein and dyno'd) will be more consistent with each other than a brand new "pair" because a random pair of shocks will never be identical ... just to throw more mud on the wall ... I'm sure the super high end stuff is all dyno'd when built though.

cheers

That sounds right for lower end shocks....like having an engine "blue printed" gives you a better engine than the factory probably ever shipped.

The better shocks do come new dyno matched so it wouldn't apply there. I don't think you have to go very high up the chain to get that. My basically bottom of the line $450 each ohlins came that way and I was also considering a bilstein option that was like $160 each that were custom assembled and I assume would have dyno sheets.


I think what concerns me more that anything else I'm reading is that the cheaper shocks like the oem konis or QA1s are not gas shocks and that means oil foaming and that means inconsistent damping when pushed hard I would think.....or at least that is the result everyone else gets with these products.

I've never really done any car racing other than autocross but with motorcycle road racing non- gas shocks went to shit by the 3rd or 4th lap making passing the guys running them progressively easier as the race went on.

Gas but non remote reservoir shocks on a motorcycle had compliance issues (the gas acts like another spring that get pretty stiff as the shock is compressed) and just never had the grip in the corners or more importantly the throttle-on grip exiting the corners so passing those guys was always easy. This is kind of where John (spang308) was going with his 350/300 spring recommendation vs my 450/400....if you want grip then the suspension needs to be as compliant as possible without letting it live on the snubbers which are not very compliant or particularly good for grib.

The lower you want the car to sit the less travel the suspension has and the higher the spring rate you need so lowering the car means removing compliance from the suspensions which means removing grip. You do gain grip by having a lower GC and less body roll, more weight on the inside tires,etc but at some point you're better off keeping the ride height up and using softer springs.

It's all very complicated when you try to make it "perfect" and generally involves a lot of trial and error...which means buying things several times

Just driving around on the street like a normal person none of this matters in the least I don't think.

[luckydynes]

So after sleeping on it I came up with what Mke suggested a couple of posts up. Just buy 2.5" springs with the right spring rate and length and make perches ... no threads ... doesn't matter for this car. I'll take some measurments and post some details with regards to this.

Something that is interesting about the QA1's which might be worth discussing. There is some kind of gas filled "bag" inside them. I spoke to an outfit that rebuilds them and this chap was telling me the bag is to force the oil where it is supposed to go. I took one apart a few years ago. I'll take some pics of it so we can understand what they were thinking.

Thanks for the explanation about the differences with shocks, etc. I'm curious, are the "green Bilsteins" that are on my 911 gas filled? ... probably?

Funny ... your "bottom of the line" is "top shelf" for a lot of us mortals .

cheers dude!

edit: reg ... that cars a 2V ... PO probably had overheating problems .

[mk e]

Originally Posted by luckydynes

Funny ... your "bottom of the line" is "top shelf" for a lot of us mortals .

cheers dude!.

Lana says "it's easy to get used to nice things"....although she means for her not for me I think.

I went with the ohlins on the car because of how happy I was with them on my bikes and I've been really happy with them on the car. On the bike the new shock was like adding about10% more hp because I could get the throttle open so much sooner, before almost all my passing was on the brakes, after it was almost all exiting the corners on the throttle, really amazing improvement. It's hard to go back to normal

On the car even with more than double the factory spring rates the ride on the street is better than stock.... because there is more compliance in the suspension. It's nothing like the knock your fillings out setup most people expect with a massive change like that.

I've got the f/r spring balance off a bit so even with the rear sway bar removed I've still got too much rear roll stiffness it seems like but that is my screw up...the guys I bought the shocks from said 500/400 not 450/400 but I got scared. It's still win autocrosses fast but it could be quite a bit better.....I need to see how the V12 changed things before I start tweaking though.

[luckydynes]

Made some tools to get the shocks apart. It was easier than I remembered since it's not a snap ring holding the springs on ... it's a two piece ring.

I also threw a scale on the press and checked the stock spring rate ... I came up with 160 #/in.

End of the day I made a tool to get the shocks apart ... they were a mess inside! I'm curious how the adjustment works when you fully compress them and turn them. I can't tell how anything works until I clean them up.

cheers

[duck.co.za]

Love to know what the front shock extended length is ? Full droop ?

[P2164]

I used Aldan Eagle billet shocks all the way around with 300 lb springs, dual adjustable with ride height. If I recall from 2001 when I bought them last they where $260 each which included springs. I tracked the car for years with this set up and thought them to be superior to stock. I also changed all the bushings upper and lower control arms to neoprene. Aldan makes shocks for street rods and is really big with the Pantera guys.

Aldan Eagle Shock Absorbers | Carson California | All Parts Made In America

[luckydynes]

Originally Posted by duck.co.za

Love to know what the front shock extended length is ? Full droop ?

15.5" center to center on the bushings ... cheers

[mk e]

Originally Posted by luckydynes

15.5" center to center on the bushings ... cheers

That's extended right? What is it fully compression?