[mk e]

My Geo install is continuing. I cleaned all the "stuff" out from around my current furnaces, unpack the geo loop pumps units, read the directions and quickly learned the pump people like the plumbing a bit fancier than the internet DIY geo people.....so off to the store to by about $600 of valves and fittings.

The first thing I did was solder up the new copper (instead of plastic I was planning) manifolds. I started here because the fittings are the fittings and they will set the pipe to pipe spacing. I left 1/4" between the fittings for easier soldering which made the spacing 2.5".

Now that I knew the spacing I screwed a couple boards to the wall to fasten the pipes to...then came sorting the pipes out and getting them into a useful order. There are 2 pumping units so the pipes going to the far unit need to be on top. The far unit is the upstairs which needs less heat (because the down stairs heat will naturally rise) so it needs the far set of geo loops which have more straight to get to them leaving less coil so they will have less capacity. I also need to watch that the cold end of one loop isn't next to the hot end of the other in the trench because that would reduce the effectiveness I think. Last I need whatever pipe is on top of the feed manifold to be on the bottom of the return manifold, 2nd from the top goes to 2nd from the bottom and so on, this keep the pressures in the loops all about the same and that will help to balance the flow so each loop is basically the same without needing to adjust any valves.

Once all this was sorted out I could screw the pipes to the boards.....of course I didn't buy enough clamps so back to the store. But first we have a lot of snow this morning so I'll need to deal with that and I ordered a 55 gallon drum of anti freeze with corrosion inhibitor and they are supposed to be dropping it off between 8-11 and little one thinks there should be so sledding in this season's first snow so it looks like it will be afternoon before any more gets done.

Oh I also set the new hot water tank.....which is an electric hot water heater that that won't get any wires, its just the cheapest easiest way to get an insulated tank. When the geo units are running making heat or AC they have waste heat...... which if you run a small pump that is connected to you hot water system you can heat water to about 100-120F. This isn't hot enough for house hot water but it's most of the way from the 55F it come in at to the 140F it needs to go out at so first comes the big pre-heat tank where the water heated by the Geo to mostly hot, no real temp control, it just does what it can with the HVAC system's waste heat, then comes the normal hotwater heater to finish the job. This will save about 80% on the hot water heating in winter and summer when the HVAC system is on most of the time. This option should pay for itself in 1 season I think.

[bretm]

Very cool.

I'm looking forward to seeing what sort of pumps you'll be running, how many amps they draw, etc.

[mk e]

Time has not been my friend.....I'm not getting much done.

First up was hang the pumps. These are 2 pump units. Technically a 3ton would only need 1 pump.....but I ran longer pipes than is standard so I was a bit concerned that a single wouldn't have a high enough flow rate. I can run just 1 pump to test it out, but I know I'm safe with the second should I want it. They are 1/6 hp 230V pumps BTW....for a little more money they can be upgraded to a higher flow pump but that was special order so I just stuck with common for ease of service.

Next..... re-do the pips to the wall because I didn't measure my manifolds properly.....between the 3 year old helping and rushing I made a pretty bone-head mistake. Fixed now and I ran them up around the outlet so it's better now anyway.

With the pipes at the correct spacing I got going mounting the manifolds, 2 down , 2 to go. To get the copper into the PE plastic (the copper is about .03-.04 (1mm) larger than the ID of the PE) I used a hot air gun to warm up the PE a bit and in it went. The I'm not so sure this is the correct way to join the 2 but it was quick and neat so.......winner in my book.

[Pizzaman]

Hey, are those bald tires for sale??

[mk e]

Originally Posted by Pizzaman

Hey, are those bald tires for sale??

Everything is for sale at the right price. The rears are a little narrow for my car.....255 or 265 I think....perfect for you I'd bet

[bretm]

What kind of clamps do you use for the PE to copper pipe connection?

I can't tell in the pics if they're worm drive or crimp.

[mk e]

Originally Posted by bretm

What kind of clamps do you use for the PE to copper pipe connection?

I can't tell in the pics if they're worm drive or crimp.

I just used plain worm drive clamps not so plain, they are SS at least. I did struff the copper in 1 1/2" so there is room to double clamp if I have any problem, but this is a pretty low pressure system so I'm thinking 1 clamp will be just fine.

[mk e]

The loop plumbing is finally done filled and the air fushed out.....pipes everywhere. I threw valves over by where the units will go to allow them to be disconnected and also to be by-passed so the geo loops can be flushed as a stand alne system. I also threw a auto-bleeder from a hot water heating system in each loop thinking it will help keep the system running air free......maybe not needed but I do see how it could hurt.

I took me a little bit to figure out how the heck to get the antinfreeze out of the drum and into the system without proper a pump. After testing a few options that turned out to be really slow I drilled a couple holes in the cap, one for the hose and 1 for the air nozzle then pressureized the drum a bit and that worked really good.

I still need to do the hot water plumbing and run the wires over.

[bretm]

Originally Posted by mk e

...I took me a little bit to figure out how the heck to get the antinfreeze out of the drum and into the system without proper a pump. After testing a few options that turned out to be really slow I drilled a couple holes in the cap, one for the hose and 1 for the air nozzle then pressureized the drum a bit and that worked really good...

Good thinking.

It's looking excellent. Man, you've got a nice basement.

[Pizzaman]

All i can say is................this thing better work or someone is going to be in big trouble.

[mk e]

Originally Posted by Pizzaman

All i can say is................this thing better work or someone is going to be in big trouble.

LOL......Big trouble doesn't even come close




......but it will work.....it has to work......my very life may be depending on it

One of the 4 water pumps is not working however. It's on the 3Ton loop so I'm not sure it will really help but I don't much like a brand new pump not working. I'll take another look at it later to be certain there isn't anthing jamming it, then call the supplier Monday if I don't have it sorted and get them to send a replacement. This is however exactly why I decided to go 2 pumps/system even though I really wasn't sure they were reqired actually required fopr the system performance.....more parts means a failure in morfe likely but the odds of both the pumps gong down at the same time are pretty low so the system reliability in much higher than in would be with a single pump. I'll probably wire a switch into 1 pump on both systems.

[tknobby]

Originally Posted by mk e

One of the 4 water pumps is not working however. It's on the 3Ton loop so I'm not sure it will really help but I don't much like a brand new pump not working. I'll take another look at it later to be certain there isn't anthing jamming it, then call the supplier Monday if I don't have it sorted and get them to send a replacement. This is however exactly why I decided to go 2 pumps/system even though I really wasn't sure they were reqired actually required fopr the system performance.....more parts means a failure in morfe likely but the odds of both the pumps gong down at the same time are pretty low so the system reliability in much higher than in would be with a single pump. I'll probably wire a switch into 1 pump on both systems.

Mark,

If one pump fails will the other be able to pump past the failed unit?

I love working with copper pipe - looks awesome when it is done properly. And you'res looks awesome.

Tom...

[mk e]

Originally Posted by tknobby

Mark,

If one pump fails will the other be able to pump past the failed unit?

I love working with copper pipe - looks awesome when it is done properly. And you'res looks awesome.

Tom...

I'll have to get you to come up next time.....I've been cursing the pipes the last few days. When Lana popped down last night to see what the heck was taking me so looks she just started laughing and asked if I was installing a heater or doing an arts and crafts project on the wall………


Yes, they are centrifugal pumps so you can flow through them with very little restriction.

[mk e]

Geo day is almost here!....and I’m still working though my action list to be ready for the man to connect it Saturday.

This has been a very tough couple months schedule wise do to unplanned cr*p, the more recent is the water heater died Saturday…..which of course sets off a whole new round of “what should I do”. I checked the local stores to see what they stock and as what price and came home even more confused then when I left. Luckily I had already plumbed in a brand new 80 gal electric water heater that will be the Geo systems holding tank and it’s only 20ft from the breaker panel so I went ahead and powered it up to get the hot water back on line while I decided what to do (in normal operation the breaker to this heater will be off, it’s just supposed to be a holding tank).

The old water heater was a 40gal propane unit that worked fine even with 10-12 people in the house….except for filling Lana’s tub. The simple answer to the tub problem is a larger water heater but that would mean a lot more wasted energy keeping the bigger tank hot to meet an occasional demand. I’d been thinking about a tankless water heater to solve the tub issue but they have other issues with low flow rate use and max flow use. The commercial water heaters are basically hybrid units which have a small tank with a huge burner in it so they can re-heat at or near the rate the tank is filling to cover high demand and cover low by simply letting the tank cover it. What to do……

Yesterday I ordered a mid size tankless unit, a Rinnai R75LSi. It puts out 180k BTU/h compared to the burned in our old heater which was 40k BTU/h. They say it’s good for 7.5 GPM @40F temp rise (less at higher temp rise, more at a lower temp rise)which is enough for 2-3 large thing (shower, washing machine, ect) at a time. This should to able handle all our needs particularly when you consider that the Geo system is pre-heating the water to 80-100 so to get to the normal 120F it’s a 20-40F temp rise….so 7.5-14GPM should be available. That covers the high end.

To cover the low end I’m a bit torn whether to just use the tankless and see how it goes or to install a small 6-30 gal electric after the big heater to make something that would act very much like a commercial system. I hate adding a tank back in because of the wasted energy used holding it at temp but I’m also a bit concerned about the low end particularly that the pre-heated Geo water will confuse the tankless heater a bit making the low flow issues worse than normal. I shot an email to the manufacture about the low flow with pre-heated water so hopefully I’ll hear something before I need to do the install.

In other news I spent the day Sunday fight with another brilliant idea I had. I needed to run new thermostat wires with more conductors, but how to get to the second floor? I decided that the easiest way would be to go up the return air duct in the master bedroom to the attic then drop down at the thermostat. Wires are only allowed in a duct if they are in metal conduit…so I decided to run a 2” conduit now so any future wiring needs would be easy…..in my head this was a 2-3 hour job but in reality to took nearly 12 not counting the time it will take to finish repairing and painting the large hole I ended up cutting in the family room wall. It’s in now and the thermostat wires are dropped at the units.

[tknobby]

Mark,

I installed the Noritz NR98-OD NG Outdoor Tankless Natural Gas Water Heater, 7.5 GPM unit in my house almost 3 years ago. Good for 199,000 BTU. Works well w/ 5 people in the hose. Granted here in south Texas we don't get cold enough to tax the systems but still this unit has been perfect. I removed a 50 gal Ng water heater. I did have to install a softener system to maintain the warranty on the Noritz.

Tom...

[mk e]

Thanks. I was just I’m half second guessing my choice now. Looking at the performance charts I think the top brands like Rinnai and Noritz throttle the flow through the unit so it never exceeds the rated flow rate and also so the output temp is never below the set temp….which means my thought that feeding pre-heated water will up the flow rate is probably wrong. The Rinnai R94 goes to 9.4 GPM but is rated at a 30F rise instead of 40F like the R75 so it’s basically the same as the R75 but with higher flow valving and a $200 higher price tag. I guess it doesn’t really matter that much but at 9.4 I’d be certain there’s enough and at 7.5 I think there’s enough….but I guess I could always bump the temp up so less is required if there is ever a capacity issue and put the money saved toward a neutralizer and softener system (we have acid water and they use crushed line chips to react the acid out…which makes the water harder)

I’m still kind of worried about the low flow with pre-heated water either way though

[radix]

I have one of the 7.5GPM tankless heaters - I really haven't had much problem with the low flow characteristics. My strategy is to set the unit temp much lower than typical tank systems (108 F or so) - this keeps the flow up for warm uses (more of the hot side needed for desired temp). It also gives finer control for setting shower temps, etc. since the amount of hot required is much more than with a 140 F input.

The big thing you notice with tankless is the delay it takes to warm up the now stone cold hot circuit after much idle time. The temp in my utility room is significantly cooler, w/o the passive heating off of the hot lines/tank loss.

[bill ward]

For what it's worth, I also have a Rinnai 7.5 Gpm. Three grand kids, 2 adults and Wife has a "Garden Tub" big enough for two with jets and we have no lack of hot water. except when our hard water scales up heater. Then I tear out my spare one in garage and install in house- takes about 1 hour tops. Flush poorly performing heater with vinegar and re-install in garage. I do this every couple years.Been very pleased with this system and don't expect to ever go back to old style tank.Have set heater @110 degree so little ones don't get hurt. bill

[mk e]

That good to hear. It seems like 7.5GPM should be plenty but there is always the "oh but what if...." which of course never actaully happens and people who are upset are much more likely to write a review than happy people so they tend not to be all that helpful really.

I order the valve kit with it which is supposed to let me flush it in place when the day comes it's required. Now I just need to find a good place to mount it now that the wall is covered with geo pipes.......

Are you guys that are running these things actually seeing any energy saving? From what I read it seems the use pattern plays a pretty big roll in whether or not ther is an energy savings

[mk e]

I wonder if it would be worth throwing small point of use heaters at the common sinks like kichen, powder room, master so there is no delay on the hot water? Anybody tried these?