[bretm]

Originally Posted by Jeff Davison

Did some research of fuel rail feeding and the best way according to Electromotive, Motec and Kinsler is to "Y" the feed in to both rails from the pump and "Y" the rail outlets into the fuel pressure regulator. A "Pulse Dampener" was also recommended by Kinsler and Motec.
JD

Nice diagram. It makes sense to plumb it that way, as both sides are the same. Down the road, when I do a forced induction setup I'll go that path as I think it will become more critical. I'll plumb everything with -8AN fittings at that point as well.

Originally Posted by mk e

That sounds right.
The only thoughts I’d add is that if there is flexible line in the system then you have a some pulse dampening (bigger lines work better than smaller lines for this) in place. Also pulse dampening is more important the few cylinders you have, with 8 or more the pulses should be pretty small and they will always be the same so they are accounted for in the tuning...

The pulse dampening is what had me a bit concerned using hard lines, so it's nice to see your $.02. It's easier to plumb hard lines cleanly, and they're approx. 1/10 the price of ss braided hose. I'm curious to see if I get a fair amount of vibrations through them or not. We'll see.

[bretm]

Originally Posted by wetpet

Fascinating thread. can somebody give a none 308qv owner the quick version of why you are doing this fuel system? I assume it is HP and you need it to go with the new ecu? seems like a lot of work and expense. What are the exact benefits of converting to this system? thanks.

It's primarily to be able to maximize the benefits of having the 10.5:1 pistons, more aggressive cams, and ported heads. The stock Bosch K-Jet is also very restrictive due to the metering plate it employs to determine airflow. This fuel system does require a modern ECU to operate though (which controls the ignition as well).

It's certainly not cost effective if you pay someone else to do it, but if you do it yourself, it can be justified. The next leap forward in performance after the 308 is the 355. Good 355s are still in the $55k-$60k range though, and are very hard to find. They also have higher potential maintenance costs as you need Ferrari's proprietary diagnostic tools to do some work (SD1 or SD2). Just as a side note, when I started this project 355s were probably $15-20K more expensive than now, while 308 values have changed very little. So, the price gap was even larger back then.

For approximately half the price gap from a 308QV to a 355, you can make the 308 run like a modern car and maybe keep up with a 348. I've been casually looking for 355s for the past year, but it's near impossible to find a good one - 1995 Berlinetta running the Motronic 2.7 and OBDI, a normal color, decent condition. At this point, I'd rather just keep the 308 and keep updating the engine, suspension, brakes, wheels, etc.

I've started looking at forced induction lately. That will be the next engine project. At the end of the day, a 550hp 308 will bury a 355. And, you could probably build it for less than buying a 355. But, of course you burn a lot of "free" hours building it.

[mk e]

Originally Posted by bretm

Nice diagram. It makes sense to plumb it that way, as both sides are the same. Down the road, when I do a forced induction setup I'll go that path as I think it will become more critical. I'll plumb everything with -8AN fittings at that point as well.

And a bigger pump over 400 hp.

The pulse dampening is what had me a bit concerned using hard lines, so it's nice to see your $.02. It's easier to plumb hard lines cleanly, and they're approx. 1/10 the price of ss braided hose. I'm curious to see if I get a fair amount of vibrations through them or not. We'll see.

I had almost exactly the same set-up on my first blower motor and there was no problem at at with pulsesing in the fuel. The problem I had was that one day while out doing some finish highway tuning it seemed like my numbers were drifting...I kept have to add more fuel.....then I notice a smell of gas......and that my full tank was now a 1/4 tank.....so I switched off the engine and coasted off the highway and to an open area and got away from the car until it colloed down. One of the hard lines had fractures and had been hosing the engine with fuel. The crack was at the flare joint.

[wetpet]

so, essentially this system will deliver more gas and is more controllable? What kind of hp are you shooting for with this project? Max rpm?

[bretm]

Originally Posted by mk e

And a bigger pump over 400 hp.

I'm thinking Aeromotive A1000 with a 40-micron filter. I don't know that the 8mm fitting on the fuel tank that I'm using as a return port would work with a pump that large though. What'd you use for the fuel return port?

I could replumb the charcoal canister and use several of the 8mm fittings for fuel return, or use the 13mm fitting that is the crossover vent between the tanks (and replumb the crossover vent using the 8mm fittings).

Originally Posted by mk e

I had almost exactly the same set-up on my first blower motor and there was no problem at at with pulsesing in the fuel. The problem I had was that one day while out doing some finish highway tuning it seemed like my numbers were drifting...I kept have to add more fuel.....then I notice a smell of gas......and that my full tank was now a 1/4 tank.....so I switched off the engine and coasted off the highway and to an open area and got away from the car until it colloed down. One of the hard lines had fractures and had been hosing the engine with fuel. The crack was at the flare joint.

Hmmmm. That would put a damper on the day. The aluminum is really soft, so it's not hard to see how it could happen. If I start to get a bad feeling about the hard lines, it's not too tough to swap to a set of ss braided hoses down the road. That is assuming the car isn't on fire at the time.

[mk e]

Originally Posted by wetpet

so, essentially this system will deliver more gas and is more controllable? What kind of hp are you shooting for with this project? Max rpm?

Delivering gas is almosgt never the problem....it's getting air into the cylinders. The stock CIS injection system limits air flow in 2 ways. First it's just plain restrictive. Converting to EFI and doing nothing else will add about 25+ hp to a QV. The second issue is the CIS system is extremely sensative to reversion which means the factory had to install very mild cams to make the CIS work which causes more restriction. Once the CIS is gone you can replace the cams with something better and add another 20 hp.

[bretm]

Originally Posted by wetpet

so, essentially this system will deliver more gas and is more controllable? What kind of hp are you shooting for with this project? Max rpm?

That's pretty much it. The big thing is that it will let me tune the air/fuel ratio to work best with the higher demands of the engine now that it is modified; the engine will require more fuel to account for the higher air flow.

The Bosch K-Jet wouldn't really be able to cope with all of this (without being modified itself) because it's primarily a mechanical system - think like a carburetor. An added bonus is that by eliminating the K-Jet's metering plate from the intake system, you reduce that restriction as well which improves not only horsepower, but also throttle response.

If I hit 300hp at the crank, I'd be exceptionally happy. Realistically though, I'd say it'll be in the 270-280hp range. The intake cams just don't have enough lift. Cams are expensive, hence just regrinding the stock ones. I've been keeping my eyes open lately for a deal on 328 cams, but haven't found any recently. One of the guys on FChat was selling a set a year or so ago, and I should have snagged them in hindsight.

It's timed with the euro spec as the base, so it should continue pulling up to at least 8k rpm (as it has significantly more duration). I don't want to spin it higher than that though.

[bretm]

Next up was to prep the car to reinstall the engine... clean off 3 years worth of dust, drain some gas that was still in the tanks, as well as some coolant still in the lower pipes. I repainted the engine compartment and frame rails when I pulled the engine originally, and also the underside of the car.

My lovely assistant (fiancee) and I bled the brakes, which were surprisingly clean. And yes, I hooptified the calipers 9 or 10 years ago by painting them with red high-temp paint.

It's tight working in a one car garage.

[bretm]

Then I installed a new set of spark plugs, put the engine on a moving dolly, and got it out of the basement.

I knew that I'd have to remove the door to get it out as it's only 30" - but it was nice to see that I didn't have to take out the jam as well. When I brought it into the basement, I had the trans separated from the engine to avoid all of this.

Then I reinstalled the engine. I have a frame made out of 4x4s that I put on top of the deck to distribute the load over 20 sq. ft. or so, and then I run a 5/16" choker cable through a hole in the deck and hang the chain block from it. I also doubled up the main joists.

I wanted to see if I could reinstall the engine with both the bellhousing on and the A/C compressor in order to save time, but it wasn't even close. So, I had to remove the A/C (which doesn't take long outside of the car). I also had to remove the half shafts. I still don't understand how I got the engine out of the car with them in.

I disassembled the halfshafts when I first pulled the engine, put new boots on them, repacked with grease, etc. I could swear I had them in when I pulled the engine though. Go figure.

[bretm]

Here's two shots of the engine just sitting on the mounts after rolling the car back into the garage, with the lifting tabs still installed on the heads.

[bretm]

And then the normal engine reinstallation begins. Bolt up the motor mounts, install the exhaust gaskets and headers, bolt together the exhaust, reinstall the oil cooler (with the Spal fan I installed a few years ago), reinstall and torque the half shafts, the aluminum pipe that goes in the "V" of the block, new hoses, etc.

I installed a new heater hose and vacuum hose in the driver side door sill when I first pulled the engine, so at least those were already taken care of, as well as a new fuel filter and the ss braided hose that connects it to the sinistra fuel rail. I also replaced all of the fuel hoses in the engine compartment a few years ago with modern style hoses.

One thing I had to modify was the bracket for the sinistra coils. I had made it years ago, and it was hitting the oil radiator duct. It's a tight fit, but it works now.

[Pizzaman]

Man, that is one tight garage.

Can you open the door or do you climb out of the top?

[Pizzaman]

That header that you left inside, what do we call that one, the front??, did you bolt it up while the motor was in the car?
I remember what a pain to unscrew those eight bolts. I left mine in there and pulled it out together with the motor.

Isn't it easier that way? With the headr on going in?

I know we had the bellhousing off when we pulled it out.

[mk e]

Originally Posted by bretm

And keep in mind that I'm a finance guy, so I rarely know what I'm talking about, but ensure that any project you take on comes out half as good as you wanted due to cost cutting.

Bret, I have to say this project isn’t going to look very good on your resume as an example of your cost cutting skills

......which means everyting is looks GREAT!

i don't remember where I have my return conected but I'll try to remember to take a look tonight and let you know

[bretm]

Originally Posted by Pizzaman

Man, that is one tight garage.
Can you open the door or do you climb out of the top?

I can just barely squeeze out of the door with the roof on and the windows down. I better watch my weight though.

It is a pain working in such a tight space, and probably adds 25-50% more time to whatever you're doing. But, it's still better than working outside. At least the basement is at the same level, so I can do quite a bit in there.

Originally Posted by Pizzaman

That header that you left inside, what do we call that one, the front??, did you bolt it up while the motor was in the car?
I remember what a pain to unscrew those eight bolts. I left mine in there and pulled it out together with the motor.
Isn't it easier that way? With the headr on going in?
I know we had the bellhousing off when we pulled it out.

I usually call that one the front header; I'm notorious for alternating between front and rear when writing these posts though, so I try to use sinistra (left) when I remember.

Anything you can put on the engine while it's still outside the car is a huge gain because you can work so much faster on the bench or stand. I hadn't thought to leave either header on, but if you can leave the sinistra one on and still get the engine in the car, it's worth doing.

Fwiw, once you remove the heat shields, it's not too bad tightening the headers while in the car. I ceramic coated mine, so we'll see how it works. I think the next time I pull the engine though, I'll wrap them in fiberglass as well. I did a single wrap on my Jeep when I put a steel tube header on it, and didn't have any problems. I think Mark double wrapped his 308 without any issues. That's probably the best way to go.

[bretm]

Originally Posted by mk e

Bret, I have to say this project isn’t going to look very good on your resume as an example of your cost cutting skills
......which means everyting is looks GREAT!
i don't remember where I have my return conected but I'll try to remember to take a look tonight and let you know

Lol. I was just looking at my monthly and yearly ending balances... looks like there wont be much karting the rest of this season. That's an easy way to cut costs.

Thanks, man. The kind words are much appreciated. I need to get moving again on the 308 now that summer business trips and vacations are done. I got a little bit of work in this past weekend, so at least the ball is rolling again.

[ferraripilot]

Fabulous job there Bret!

[bretm]

Originally Posted by ferraripilot

Fabulous job there Bret!

Thanks.

[ferraripilot]

Making a 308 'go fast' makes about 10000 times more sense to me than buying a 348 or 355. I'm so happy seeing more people doing this. I considered getting into a 348 or even a 355, but the 'what ifs' are just too crazy especially with the 355. I drove a 360 F1 the other day and it was fantastic, modern, and very quick. A 360 would be more of a compliment to the stable with a 308 rather than a replacement. A 308 is just too connected to ever let go of.

[bretm]

Originally Posted by ferraripilot

Making a 308 'go fast' makes about 10000 times more sense to me than buying a 348 or 355. I'm so happy seeing more people doing this. I considered getting into a 348 or even a 355, but the 'what ifs' are just too crazy especially with the 355. I drove a 360 F1 the other day and it was fantastic, modern, and very quick. A 360 would be more of a compliment to the stable with a 308 rather than a replacement. A 308 is just too connected to ever let go of.

Agreed. Any 308 is a great starting point. The rough condition cars are so cheap nowadays that one would make a great winter beater... I think I need a larger garage first though.