[StefVan]

Slightly off topic but I'm very curious if there have been any timing chain issues on the F430. Does any of you pros had seen broken chains? Is there an ultimatum maintenance schedule for them? Sorry for the questions but while we are at this subject, it would be nice to know more. Cheers.

[360 Modena]

Originally Posted by wetpet

Still waiting for someone to post that they have personally experienced a timing belt snap because of wear or age............neither brett nor mk e, nor brian have done so. still waiting to hear from artvonne. Again, not saying it doesn't happen. I know it does. Not even brian, who i'm sure has seen belts break from wear or age will post his experience. How many have you seen? 3,5,10,20? My point isn't that they don't break, it's that there seems to be little in the way of actual sightings of this unicorn. and 3yrs is paranoia.

Short answer: NO

Long answer: I'm paranoid (despite my new avatar)

I change the belts every 5 years on the TR and 3 years on the 360. I have replaced the belts on the TR after only four years (three majors over a 14-year period of ownership).

I believe in the adage "pay me now, or pay me later"

The "later" can be quite costly, so preventive maintenance is very important to me personally.

It also keeps our favorite techs in business so they will be around when we REALLY need them.

Ed, I think you are driving on borrowed time but if you PV your savings, it's probably worth the risks:reward to you.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by StefVan

Slightly off topic but I'm very curious if there have been any timing chain issues on the F430. Does any of you pros had seen broken chains? Is there an ultimatum maintenance schedule for them? Sorry for the questions but while we are at this subject, it would be nice to know more. Cheers.

Actually right now I am working on an article for Forza Magazine about belts and chains. We have had oil pump chain problems on the V8's but not to my knowledge on the cam chains. Cam chain drives are well understood and no application so far has been immune from problems. Most manufacturers refer to them as "Lifetime" in much the same way BMW calls their transmission fluid lifetime.. Well that just is not true unless you consider an engine needing an expensive replacement/rebuild of its entire cam drive system and possible replacement of bent valves an end of life event.

When they do wear out (and they will) it is expensive. The fleet of modern chain driven Ferrari as yet has too few miles to know much about life or failure patterns. The big difference between chains and belts as far as ultimate costs go is the chains only wear when you are actually driving the car.

[wetpet]

story of my life al.....

Originally Posted by 360 Modena

Ed, I think you are driving on borrowed time .

[mk e]

Originally Posted by Brian

The big difference between chains and belts as far as ultimate costs go is the chains only wear when you are actually driving the car.

That is a BIG difference though as most ferrari Belts are changed for age not miles I"d guess.

[Artvonne]

On chain driven cams its been seen on occasion that if the chain separates, it will wrap around the crank sprocket and bust the timing case, and in some cases, depending on engine design, the block too. Usually though, the chain is making such God awful noise that you would either have to be stone deaf or dumb as a stump to ignore it. And usually they will jump a few teeth and through it out of time enough the engine quits before it destroys itself.

So why belts? Faster acceleration due to lower weight parts, the engine can spool up quicker because its has less mass to accelerate, same principle as lightening the flywheel or internal parts such as lighter weight pistons, light weight rods, etc.. We think of peak brake horsepower, but there is also inertia horsepower. Plastic cam sprockets and a light weight belt. It probably doesnt make any sense really, most of these cars are garage queens and weekend warriors. But it is a Ferrari and thats where they headed in the 1970's. I dont think its a weakness, so much as just a higher maintenance system. Chains are for diesel engines that will crank away for 400K miles and last 30 years. Belts are for Formula One engines.

[Admiral Goodwrench]

Obviously late to this thread but who needs any stinking belts or chains...

Best regards,

[tazandjan]

Admiral- Certainly solves the problem and makes glorious gear noises, too. Also makes it easy to time the cams. Marks on the gears never change.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Admiral Goodwrench

Obviously late to this thread but who needs any stinking belts or chains...

Best regards,

The airplane guys have always favored gears too.


Allison V1710 top
Rolls Royce V1650 bottom

[Vintagetinman]

I don't know about the rest of you but using Hondas and subarus as examples doesn't work . If you break a belt on a Honda you are looking at a 2k to 5k repair . Break a belt on a Ferrari 308 and you could almost buy a new Honda . I would stick close to the factory replacement schedule .

[Vintagetinman]

I had this problem with my old Porsche 944 . When the belt let go it was cheaper to buy another 944

[F355 Challenge]

Originally Posted by tazandjan

A 550 owner did have his old style belt break at 29K miles and about 6 years. That one is fully documented, but the belts are different from the 308/328.

Perhaps you're referring to my 550, Terry. The right bank timing belt broke in October 2003 at 29,000 miles. It was the original belt in my MY1999 550 built in May. Ironically, this occured just one week before the car had been scheduled for its first major service. The previous owner is fastidious about caring for his Ferraris. The recommended belt change interval at the time was 5 years or 30,000 miles. The belt was 4 1/2 years old.

The pistons suffered nothing more than minor nicking and were retained. This is one of the 24 valves which were replaced...

[P2164]

Thanks Barry, I think your the first owner of a car that its happened to. Can you fill us in on any details if you don't mind. Where you running hard at high RPM or just cruising? Had anything gotten in the path of the belt and pulley or was it fatigue?

My wife is a retired RN, I sure miss those blue towels.

[tazandjan]

Barry- There was never a five year interval for the 550 on timing belts. The recommended interval for all European 550s was 3 years or 30,000 miles, whichever came first. For US 550s, it was 30,000 miles only with no time interval recommended. The first US owners manual, 1164/97, may have been published when Ferrari was still worried about EPA warranties, and they never bothered to change the maintenance schedule through the last OM, 1636/00. The technical bulletin that extended the belt change interval to 5 years or 30,000 miles left the 456, 456M and 550 at 3 years or 30,000 miles.

The previous owner of your car was still working within the maintenance schedule at 4 years and 29,000 miles here in the States.

[Granucci]

I thought the 5 year adjustment to 12s were a fairly new change anyway.

Off to the historic races at Sonoma raceway.... Hope to see more cars like the Admirals to drool over...those gears are just a fine watch enlarged!

[tazandjan]

Rik- The new V12 belt technical bulletin first came out in 2002 after the new belts were introduced on the 575M. It stated 5 years 30,000 miles (50,000 kms,31068 miles actually, they say 32,000 miles) for 575Ms and 3years, 30,000 miles for earlier 65 deg V12s. An updated bulletin included the 612 in the 5 year interval, but all 612 tech data says 5 years, 30,000 miles at any rate.

My personal opinion is if you use the new belts and have the late 456/456M/550/575M tensioner bracket, you should be good for 5 years, too. That is not Ferrari's recommendation, however. The real recommendations for V12s and V8s are below.

[F355 Challenge]

Originally Posted by P2164

Thanks Barry, I think your the first owner of a car that its happened to. Can you fill us in on any details if you don't mind. Where you running hard at high RPM or just cruising? Had anything gotten in the path of the belt and pulley or was it fatigue?

Hi Jack,

The belt failure happened to my 550's previous owner. I purchased the car in December 2007.

He had just finished a two-day track event at Pocono Raceway and was driving home. He stopped at a red light and when it turned green, he stepped on the accelerator pedal but didn't get very far. He shut down immediately, pushed the car onto the shoulder and had it flat bedded to the shop. Another irony was that this happened less than a month after the one year extended Factory warranty he had purchased ended. He was the second owner of my 550. I'm the third.

So it happened just like that! He said there was no warning. The car was idling normally at the light and not making any strange sounds. But he tracked the car frequently putting on ~8,000 track miles in the 6 1/2 years he owned the car. I track the 550 too and I've put about 3,000 track miles on the car. To be safe, I have the car on a three-year belt change interval changing the tensioners every other belt change.

Originally Posted by P2164

My wife is a retired RN, I sure miss those blue towels.

Those blue towels are the best! They make a good background for photographing surgical specimens. And bent valves.



Barry

[F355 Challenge]

Originally Posted by tazandjan

Barry- There was never a five year interval for the 550 on timing belts. The recommended interval for all European 550s was 3 years or 30,000 miles, whichever came first. For US 550s, it was 30,000 miles only with no time interval recommended.

The previous owner of your car was still working within the maintenance schedule at 4 years and 29,000 miles here in the States.

Yes, that's right, Terry. Thanks. It's a US car and the maintenance schedule in the OM doesn't specify a time interval.

I think belt failures are rare events. So are sodium-filled valve failures. Classic Coach, where I have my cars serviced, has only seen this one 550 belt failure. In the 10 1/2 years I've known the shop, they've only had two other belt failures to manage involving other models. One car's belts and tensioners were very old and the other car had a belt change, without tensioners being changed, done elsewhere. They've only seen one sodium-filled valve failure in the past 20 years. I think it was a 308.

What they see mostly is damage to cars by driver error, like Challenge cars over-revving by faulty downshifting and overfilling dry sumps. They also get damage to cars by drivers doing stupid things. A couple of years ago, they had to replace a 360 transmission. The owner did repeated tire burnouts for over 30 minutes trying to impress his friends.

Classic Coach is a Factory-authorized service center and follows Factory guidelines using Ferrari parts. They have their customers' cars on strict service schedules which might account for the low belt/tensioner failure rate seen at that shop.

Barry

[F355 Challenge]

One saving grace with the 550 is that the valves have thin necks. Thus they bend without doing much harm to the pistons. Note how there was just the slightest deformation of the valve itself at the nine o'clock position in the first picture.

Still, changing 24 valves and guides is an expensive experience.

[cribbj]

Originally Posted by 308 GTB

One saving grace with the 550 is that the valves have thin necks. Thus they bend without doing much harm to the pistons.

Hmm, designed with that possible eventuality in mind? J/K.....

It seemed all the savvy engine manufacturers began moving to 5.0 or 5.5mm diameter stems in the late 90's from 6.0mm or larger, to reduce the load on the valve train and to improve flow. At least that's what Toyota's stated rationale was for doing it.