[JazzyO]

I've just been offered a 275GTS in Belgium for €450k. What is it with this particular car that causes European owners to walk around with their head in the clouds? In this market, surely that is a ridiculous price. Let me show my reasoning.

A 275GTS is "just" a 330GTC with a chopped roof and a smaller engine, or to be more precise the 330GTC is a 275GTS that they put a roof on. Don't get me wrong, it is my dream Ferrari, but let's not fool each other into thinking the car has anything like the clout and racing pedigree of the 275GTB.

Personally, I think it is worth a premium of maximum (absolute maximum) €100k over a 330GTC, which is exactly where they used to be. That would place it at €280 - €300k for a perfect example (which I still think is pretty steep). In the US, prices get close to that (e.g. the one at Sheehan for US$399k).

Instead, we see asking prices of €450 - €500k in Europe and they're just not dropping. At least not yet.

Anyone understand what is going on here? Are owners going to wake up? Or will the lack of supply keep prices where they are even if the cars are not selling?

One thing is for sure - if they don't get back to prices related to the 330GTC, then I won't be buying one. To me, the premium is not worth it. I mean, I know of a nice enough Lusso that sold for €300k recently - surely a 275GTS is worth less than a Lusso.

Thoughts?


Onno

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Sounds like you're a little upset, Onno ? I concurr. w/ smiles Jimmy

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS

Sounds like you're a little upset, Onno ? I concurr. w/ smiles Jimmy

Not upset exactly, but I just don't understand it. I hate it when I don't understand things - doesn't happen very often!


Onno

[212Export]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

Not upset exactly, but I just don't understand it. I hate it when I don't understand things - doesn't happen very often!


Onno

Onno, you are the hunter lying in the woods, with the rifle ready to shoot...but no dear is coming around the corner....and finally you find out, your are waiting in the desert....?!

No, seriously in understand your "unpatience". My 2 cents: 1. Offered price ideas are no prices, real price is only the amount on which a real trade happens. Therefore all offered prices are no prices.
2. Demand and supply play also in this market. Demand is low at these lofty prices as the demand side (like you) await much lower prices. Suplly side still lives mentally in the price-stratosphere still not ready to accept the fact of much lower price level demand...therefore no trades (same cars on offer for same asking prices, no trades at all)
3. The recession started just 9 month ago and while it takes time to soak into the brains of car dealers it suddenly will, especially when the banks are cutting their credit lines, but with low interest rate inviroment that may take longer than otherwise around
4. Do not compare 275 GTS and 330 GTC, its a different market with different people in it. As a comparison I would argue, that a 250 Tour de France GT should just be slightly more expensive than a 250 GT Alloy Boano, whereas the paid price difference is 400%

Onno, keep cool and stalk, wait for the fatal dear to come around the corner and THEN act. You lose nothing by waiting ! (Besides its a great character training)

[JazzyO]

Thanks for the advice, 212. However, it is not that I'm frustrated that prices are not coming down, it is that everything else seems to come down except 275GTSs. That puzzles me.

Asking prices are not selling prices, I realise that, but no seller with an asking price of 450k is going to accept 300k.

It is also not about the comparison between two models, it is about the price differential 5 years ago. Although the numbers have changed, the relative difference shouldn't have changed. If a model was 50% more expensive 5 years ago, that should apply still (provided the cars are old enough, newer Ferraris have different rules).

Daytonas dropped, Lussos dropped, 275GTBs dropped. Why not the GTS?

Anyway - I'll keep quiet now, I'm hunting wabbits!


Onno

[212Export]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

Thanks for the advice, 212. However, it is not that I'm frustrated that prices are not coming down, it is that everything else seems to come down except 275GTSs. That puzzles me.

Asking prices are not selling prices, I realise that, but no seller with an asking price of 450k is going to accept 300k.

It is also not about the comparison between two models, it is about the price differential 5 years ago. Although the numbers have changed, the relative difference shouldn't have changed. If a model was 50% more expensive 5 years ago, that should apply still (provided the cars are old enough, newer Ferraris have different rules).

Daytonas dropped, Lussos dropped, 275GTBs dropped. Why not the GTS?

Anyway - I'll keep quiet now, I'm hunting wabbits!



Onno

Onno why should price difference between different models not change. this is a fix assumption which is doomed to fail. Sorry but when neu, a 250 GTE 2+2 was at the same price as a 250 SWB !? How about the 275 GTS at Sheehan at $399' almost Euro 300 or is it gone ?

And hey, just do not stay quiet. A forum is to discuss! after all its fun to discuss all these topics. We are what we think

[Boxer]

I fully agree. 275 GTS' should be Euro 225-275k Ferraris. The only reason I can see prices remaining near where they are is the low production numbers (believe about 200). I would even put a premium of Euro 50-75l for a 330 GTS as it is a more advanced car.

However they are beautiful cars and with other soft top Ferraris hitting $10 mil, prices on all Ferrari spiders of that era have been pulled quickly north. My personal favorite: 275 NART Spider.

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

As much as I am attracted to spyders of all forms, it is very difficult to swallow the asking prices of the market. Is it because spyder models are popular in the States and Europe ? Seems like there's somekind of formula where people set the spyders' price by multiplying equivalent coupes' price by 2 (x2) ? w/ smiles Jimmy

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by 212Export

Onno why should price difference between different models not change. this is a fix assumption which is doomed to fail. Sorry but when neu, a 250 GTE 2+2 was at the same price as a 250 SWB !? How about the 275 GTS at Sheehan at $399' almost Euro 300 or is it gone ?

And hey, just do not stay quiet. A forum is to discuss! after all its fun to discuss all these topics. We are what we think

212, I think you misread my post. I said the price difference will change for new Ferraris, but for Ferraris from the '60ies the price differential has by and large established by now and has in fact since the late '80ies. Boxers are cheaper than 330's, which are cheaper than Daytonas, which are cheaper than 275GTB's. GTSs used to be, only a few years ago, a little more expensive than GTCs and much cheaper than Daytonas, but at the moment that seems to have changed. I don't think the cars are viewed any differently - or perhaps I am mistaken? Boxer's comment on spiders from the '60ies may have something to do with that. Perhaps more people want a drop top than before?

The 275GTS at Sheehan is still too expensive in my book, particularly because I have the impression the car needs work. Just like Boxer, I think they should be sitting a bit below the Eur250k mark for a top example. But perhaps I have missed my window and they will never come down to that level again...


Onno

[212Export]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

212, I think you misread my post. I said the price difference will change for new Ferraris, but for Ferraris from the '60ies the price differential has by and large established by now and has in fact since the late '80ies. Boxers are cheaper than 330's, which are cheaper than Daytonas, which are cheaper than 275GTB's. GTSs used to be, only a few years ago, a little more expensive than GTCs and much cheaper than Daytonas, but at the moment that seems to have changed. I don't think the cars are viewed any differently - or perhaps I am mistaken? Boxer's comment on spiders from the '60ies may have something to do with that. Perhaps more people want a drop top than before?

The 275GTS at Sheehan is still too expensive in my book, particularly because I have the impression the car needs work. Just like Boxer, I think they should be sitting a bit below the Eur250k mark for a top example. But perhaps I have missed my window and they will never come down to that level again...


Onno

Onno I believe a have fully understood what you meant and I do confirm that Boxers are cheaper than 330GTC's which are cheaper than Daytonas which are cheaper than 275 GTB's. No question about that.
But the factor within those comparisons changes. I.e. At the end of the '90's, a short nose 275 GTB could be bought for $ 180 - 220, at the same moment and equivalent good qualitiy 365 BB was $ 80-120, factor 2:1; today the factor is 6,7, or 8:1! That's the base of my initial argument that in certain cases we stay hopeless in expecting previous factor rationalization coming back. They may but probably not.

[JazzyO]

OK, I get you. My personal feeling was that the relative factor wouldn't change so much but I'm clearly mistaken.


Onno

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

OK, I get you. My personal feeling was that the relative factor wouldn't change so much but I'm clearly mistaken.


Onno

I don't think you are mistaken. You have your sound values in order. It's just that factors like the rest of the market (people's) desires have changed. I remember vaguely that six/seven years ago 330GTCs were availabe here for around 120,000 or so equivalent. So were the 250GTLs. w/ smiles Jimmy

[Boxer]

What is the current market price for a Lusso ?

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Originally Posted by Boxer

What is the current market price for a Lusso ?

In US$, anywhere from terminal 500K to the high end of 600K !!! Insane ? Depends, I suppose. w/ smiles Jimmy

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS

In US$, anywhere from terminal 500K to the high end of 600K !!! Insane ? Depends, I suppose. w/ smiles Jimmy

That makes no sense. I was offered a decent one last year for Euro 300k.

Probably should check to see if it is still for sale

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Originally Posted by Boxer

That makes no sense. I was offered a decent one last year for Euro 300k.

Probably should check to see if it is still for sale

That's a pretty "decent" offer, in light of the selections. As mentioned before, I was looking at Lusso few years ago, but one reservation I had was the fact that it is four gears (?). w/ smiles Jimmy

[JazzyO]

Boxer, I was at Forza Service in Holland a month ago and there was a nice (but not perfect) Lusso there which had just sold for Eur300k. So it does still happen. But I don't think it's a market average for that car in the condition I saw it in.

I wish it was - I am absolutely dribbling at any sight of a Lusso; I just luurrrrrrve them!


Onno

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

Boxer, I was at Forza Service in Holland a month ago and there was a nice (but not perfect) Lusso there which had just sold for Eur300k. So it does still happen. But I don't think it's a market average for that car in the condition I saw it in.

I wish it was - I am absolutely dribbling at any sight of a Lusso; I just luurrrrrrve them!


Onno

I guess this comes back to the "value bands" again. If a very good 330 GTC is Euro 150k, a Daytona 200k, then a Lusso at Euro 300k seems about right.

As Jimmy correctly reminded me, the Lusso is only a 4 speed and both the 330 GTC and Daytona are probably more exciting drivers cars.

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

I have only seen Lusso few times up close ( I love the lines, which is why I am attracted to it). Nevertheless, read some articles a while back mentioning that being only 4 speed and Lusso, meaning luxury (I think), is not exactly a hair raising, racing kind of ride (what do I know). The beauty (and value also) is in mind of the beholders. w/ smiles Jimmy

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS

I have only seen Lusso few times up close ( I love the lines, which is why I am attracted to it). Nevertheless, read some articles a while back mentioning that being only 4 speed and Lusso, meaning luxury (I think), is not exactly a hair raising, racing kind of ride (what do I know). The beauty (and value also) is in mind of the beholders. w/ smiles Jimmy

I have to say, 4 speed and luxury, not really what I would be looking for.