[Boxer]

I have always had a soft spot for the 365 GT 2+2. This is the first reasonably priced one I have seen in quite a while:

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/wspd_...aleSectionNo=2

should I place a bid ?

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Originally Posted by Boxer

I have always had a soft spot for the 365 GT 2+2. This is the first reasonably priced one I have seen in quite a while:

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/wspd_...aleSectionNo=2

should I place a bid ?

Well, Boxer,...seems like your soft spot is getting the tremor ? Speaking for myself, when I became interested in classic/ vintage Ferraris few years ago, I remember how attracted I was to a dark blue w/ tan interior 365 GT 2+2 that I found. Had to rule out due to the size not being practical. Otherwise, the car has many features that I consider attractive also. (Somehow, I couldn't seem to get thru the site you listed). w/ smiles Jimmy

[Boxer]

Sorry about the link, try:

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/wspd_...&iSaleNo=17261

Lot 232

[archiegibbs]

If it goes for the estimated price, it is reasonable. Mike Wheeler has had one for sale for some time. It started out at £59995, but is now down to £49995, and I'm sure he'd look at offers. I don't know how the condition of the two cars compare.
They are a nice looking classic 4 seater GT. I was chatting to an owner of 25 years at the recent national concours, he said that his hadn't really caused him any major problems in 25 years, and was still going strong.

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Seems like an enticing price there. Here's some pics taken recently. Disregard the red color. w/ smiles Jimmy

[Boxer]

The price is enticing and what originally caught my eye. At that price you can buy and still have $$$ left to sort out any issues.

[JazzyO]

Vitalone can offer ownership experiences as his dad owned one. My information is that the brakes are not quite up to the task and because of that it can be a bit scary to drive in modern traffic. I haven't driven one, so I can't comment on this model, but I have driven the 330 GT 2+2, which suffered from similar underbraked issues. The 330 GT 2+2 was a nice car to drive but I can say that my 330GTC is much, much, much sportier and involving.

I think the best way to describe the '60ies GT 2+2 models is a sporty Jaguar experience with great engine noise. So if that is what you're after, they're lovely cars.

As always - you have to be careful buying into the entree level classic Ferraris: as they are not worth full restorations (in terms of getting your money back) there are a lot out there that look nice but need new mechanicals and are not suited to a lot of driving. But I'm sure you knew that.


Onno

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

Vitalone can offer ownership experiences as his dad owned one. My information is that the brakes are not quite up to the task and because of that it can be a bit scary to drive in modern traffic. I haven't driven one, so I can't comment on this model, but I have driven the 330 GT 2+2, which suffered from similar underbraked issues. The 330 GT 2+2 was a nice car to drive but I can say that my 330GTC is much, much, much sportier and involving.

I think the best way to describe the '60ies GT 2+2 models is a sporty Jaguar experience with great engine noise. So if that is what you're after, they're lovely cars.

As always - you have to be careful buying into the entree level classic Ferraris: as they are not worth full restorations (in terms of getting your money back) there are a lot out there that look nice but need new mechanicals and are not suited to a lot of driving. But I'm sure you knew that.


Onno

Excellent advise and you are quite right. A car with needs will be a financial black hole. I do remeber the brakes being rubbish on the last one I drove a few years ago. It is definitely more the elegant cruiser than the Sporting GT.

[colonel1961]

Originally Posted by Boxer

Sorry about the link, try:

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/wspd_...&iSaleNo=17261

Lot 232

Love the color and the plexi covers, but not as much as the long sweeping lines of the profile. Beautiful.

Seems like a very reasonable price (if their auction estimates and my exchange rates are correct).

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by colonel1961

Love the color and the plexi covers, but not as much as the long sweeping lines of the profile. Beautiful.

Seems like a very reasonable price (if their auction estimates and my exchange rates are correct).

Price does seem reasonable but will need to find out more to see if it is a good buy or a financial venus fly trap.

[Granucci]

That seems a decent price. I know of someone selling that model for about that price, but it's in the states: owner is a member here, and his car has won several best of shows

His shipment, and 'wrong side' steering wheel would make it a no go for you, but in that price range....these cars are HARD to pass up, IMO.

[archiegibbs]

Link to the car that Mike Wheeler has had for sale for some time now. It also looks very nice. 85000 miles on a 40 year old car? Is that an issue for a 4.4 litre V12?

http://www.rardleymotors.com/docs_08...del_year%20ASC

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by archiegibbs

Link to the car that Mike Wheeler has had for sale for some time now. It also looks very nice. 85000 miles on a 40 year old car? Is that an issue for a 4.4 litre V12?

http://www.rardleymotors.com/docs_08...del_year%20ASC

Really depends on how the car has been maintained. A 12 cylinder Ferrari engien should be good for 150-200k mile before needing a rebuild however age does and can play a role. The risk on the auction 365 GT 2+2 is you would not be able to have a leakdown or compression test run to determine its help.

[JazzyO]

Even if you can do tests it doesn't reveal everything. For example, it's starting to look like my Boxer needs a full engine rebuild - even though one was done less than 2 years ago, and another one less than 1,000 miles (but 17 years...) before that. Clearly some corners were cut!! We will only know the extent of the problem by taking the engine fully apart.

With classic Ferraris, I'm starting to think it boils down to 4 things:

1. Knowledge of the current owner. How experienced is he in classic Ferraris? How long has he had one, and how long this one? Has he been through a restoration process before (even if the car in question was not restored he will have learnt a lot if he has)? What does he say about people that you know? If he critises a person you trust (or other way around) it says something about the relationship he's had with the car.
2. Knowledge of the people that have worked on the car. Do you trust the shops? What kind of money was spent? Do the shops like the owner (e.g. does he pay his bills on time)?
3. Knowledge of the car. Is it well known by 3rd parties (FOC, friends, experts)? What mileage has it done in total but also in recent years? Is the use you are going to put it through different from what it has been accustomed to in the past X years? Where was it stored (e.g. well ventilated, heated, covered)? Who restored it? What exactly was done and how much was spent (€2,000 for an engine rebuild = run away!)? How are the bushings (great engine is good but does not mean a great car just yet)? Was it cleaned and greased before winter storage? Was it tracked or raced? Does it have any issues? If so, they could point to something more serious.
4. In the end, you can always be unlucky. Expect the unexpected and keep the piggy bank close at hand.

But a lot of the above you can't verify in an auction. I love auctions but buying a classic Ferrari there I would only do if there was no other way to get my hands on a particular car.


Onno

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by colonel1961

Love the color and the plexi covers, but not as much as the long sweeping lines of the profile. Beautiful.

Seems like a very reasonable price (if their auction estimates and my exchange rates are correct).

I had not actually looked at the car in question yet.

It does look nice on these small grainy pics, which don't tell you anything really.

A couple of things I noticed:

1. Engine bay looks tatty enough to expect less than perfect maintenance on both body and engine
2. There is no mention of current mileage, nor mileage after it came from France in 2000.
3. There was a gearbox oil leak in 2005.

Combining these things I would be weary if the car has not travelled a lot of miles since 2005. If it has, then it means the current owner sorted the car out. If it hasn't, he grew tired of it.


Onno

[Boxer]

JazzyO, Very sound advise. I am going to pass on even registering to bid on this 365 GT 2+2 as I will not be able to attend the auction or have the car evaluated. Given all the potential issues, I would not buy a car that I at least had not been able to do a visual check on seen the history file.

[Boxer]

It ended up selling for GBP 35k plus buyers premium. I did call Bonhams and they were pretty honest about the car. Mechanicals are an unknown, interior was OK, and paint pretty rough. Think the new owner is in for a bit of wallet pain.

[archiegibbs]

That makes the Mike Wheeler car look cheap if a deal could be done on the price.

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by archiegibbs

That makes the Mike Wheeler car look cheap if a deal could be done on the price.

If you could buy the Wheeler 365 GT 2+2 for GBP 40k it would be a good deal.

[archiegibbs]

Make him a cheeky offer

He's had it in stock for about a year, so might be willing to come down?