[Pooya]

I've been asked why when the F430 F1 shifts, the passenger's head moves 5 inches forward and back? Couldn't the ferrari use automatic gearbox or something like sequential of BMW M6 or something similar PDK or the Porsche which is much quicker in shifting?

I know the F1 is electrohydrulic but I don't know why or if it is better than those other gearboxes if it really is?

Another question which is related to the same shifting system is when you shift with paddles should you ease the throttle or not? The shifting will be smoother if you do so. While in owner's manual it is stated :

UPSHIFTING :
it is advisable to:
• Shift gears without releasing the
accelerator pedal.
• Wait until one gearshift has been
completed before requesting the next
one, thereby avoiding multiple requests
in rapid succession.

Downshifting:
Operate the left-hand DOWN lever without
releasing the accelerator pedal.
A downshift request is not accepted if
engagement of the requested gear will
force the engine beyond a certain speed,
depending on the gear requested, or if a
downshift is already in progress due to a
low engine RPM
In any case, it is best to
• Shift gears without releasing the
accelerator pedal

I really feel a better gear shift when I ease the throttle I think it avoids jerking or move the passenger's head 5 inch forward and back...

[wetpet]

shifting advice on the 430 does not take passenger head movement into account. It is based on the fastest possible shift. If you want the fastest possible shift, stay in the throttle. If you don't want your passengers head to move (I do ), ease off. I don't think you can have both.

[ferraricyprus]

As Ed has said. Keep the throttle on. The 430 gear change is fantastic when set-up right. The key here is to remember it is a hydraulically-electrically shifted manual gearbox, not an auto.

[Pooya]

Why electro hydraulic? in 2005 - 2009 other technologies were being used in different cars.
Is ferrari far behind in gearbox technology? (stupid question because of stupid slow gear shifting specially on scud)

p.s : the passenger's head moves because of slow shift not the speed of the car.

[tazandjan]

You do not sound like you keep up on Ferrari technology at all and need to do some reading. The Scud is not slow shifting and shifts at 60 ms compared to the 150 ms on your F430. Ferraris through the Scud used dry plate clutches and an electro-hydraulic shifter mechanism. The last Ferraris with this system were the 599 GTO and the Scuderia/16M. Ferrari introduced the dual clutch transmission on the California in 09 and it has been on every Ferrari since. The DCT uses wet clutch technology and shifts are down around 20 ms. An aircraft flying mach one travels only 20 feet in 20 ms.


Do you subscribe to any magazines that will keep you up to date on what is going on? Even Road and Track and Car and Driver have articles on the latest Ferraris and what is happening. If you read some articles on how F1 works, you would know the system's digital throttle lifts momentarily during upshifts. That and the change in gear ratios is what causes the bang on upshifts. In DCTs, that feeling is damped.

[StefVan]

+1 on what Terry wrote. The Ferrari F1 is still a very up to date engineering master piece as well as is the Cambiocorsa in the Maserati Granturismo S and MC Stradale. The small kick you can feel while shifting is exactly what many owners missed in the F458, in such an extend that Ferrari had to upgrade the 458 F1 firmware to get partly that feeling back. But the upgraded F458 is still shifting at the same lightspeed so the kick isn't related to shift speed

[DanS]

+1 on Terry's comments. 60ms is pretty quick.
Ferrari has adopted dual clutch technology on the newest cars, but F1 doesn't allow it, hence the Superfast2 on the Scud.

[mikegr]

you should drive a Tiptronic to see what slow gear shifting means

[Pooya]

Originally Posted by mikegr

you should drive a Tiptronic to see what slow gear shifting means

I own a M6 and a SL55. and don't know what do you mean about slow gear change?!

Still I'm not convinced about the efficient shifting in 430. even a cayman porsche or carrera 2006-7 model's shifting speed seems quicker.

in all above cars except Ferrari F1 you hardly can feel the flow of the power goes off...

P.S , PDK is not wet, it is wet and dry.

why you guys try to say the shifting is Extereme quick on a F1? do you say there is NO interrupt in flow of power?! well it is and that's why passenger's head goes to the dashboard and comes back to the headrest!

Porsche PDK...WARNING...Gearhead video about Dual Clutch Transmissions - YouTube

[Pooya]

Originally Posted by tazandjan

You do not sound like you keep up on Ferrari technology at all and need to do some reading. The Scud is not slow shifting and shifts at 60 ms compared to the 150 ms on your F430. Ferraris through the Scud used dry plate clutches and an electro-hydraulic shifter mechanism. The last Ferraris with this system were the 599 GTO and the Scuderia/16M. Ferrari introduced the dual clutch transmission on the California in 09 and it has been on every Ferrari since. The DCT uses wet clutch technology and shifts are down around 20 ms. An aircraft flying mach one travels only 20 feet in 20 ms.


Do you subscribe to any magazines that will keep you up to date on what is going on? Even Road and Track and Car and Driver have articles on the latest Ferraris and what is happening. If you read some articles on how F1 works, you would know the system's digital throttle lifts momentarily during upshifts. That and the change in gear ratios is what causes the bang on upshifts. In DCTs, that feeling is damped.

it has nothing to do with my subscription in any magazine. I mentioned that in 2006-2009 better and quicker transmission technologies were being used by other brands.

well go back to the question. the shifting is not seem to be ultra efficient because the shifting is not quick enough. no matter how fast the shifting of the gear is! what nobody mentioned here is FLOW OF THE POWER goes for a while...

even when I drag between my M6 and F430, on the shifting time is the only time BMW can have a relief and when engine engages again then it's Engine vs engine...

and about the BANG! did I say car's shifting is jerky or sharp? that could be for ratio.
it's like this :

Gear1..S...H...I...F...T....BANG

the problem is not after shift happens.. the problem is with the cut of power till the shift completes.

Sometimes I use race mode because it shifts quicker and the power-cut time reduces and that gives a little rest to passenger's neck

[Pooya]

Originally Posted by StefVan

+1 on what Terry wrote. The Ferrari F1 is still a very up to date engineering master piece as well as is the Cambiocorsa in the Maserati Granturismo S and MC Stradale. The small kick you can feel while shifting is exactly what many owners missed in the F458, in such an extend that Ferrari had to upgrade the 458 F1 firmware to get partly that feeling back. But the upgraded F458 is still shifting at the same lightspeed so the kick isn't related to shift speed

"The small kick you can feel while shifting is exactly what many owners missed in the F458"

why did they missed it? do they like the gear change be so perceptible?

My friend's car shifting is as shows in this video :
Porsche 911 GTS PDK Acceleration - YouTube

I drove that car, you won't feel the power cut and can't even be compared to a scud.

can somebody explain to me as an unsubscribed to magazines and uneducated person, why shifting in a car like above is far quicker than my toy?

[Pooya]

Originally Posted by DanS

+1 on Terry's comments. 60ms is pretty quick.
Ferrari has adopted dual clutch technology on the newest cars, but F1 doesn't allow it, hence the Superfast2 on the Scud.

Can you please explain more about "but F1 doesn't allow it, hence the Superfast2 on the Scud"

[champagne612]

The Ferrari F1 system is constantly looking to shift - in other words it is awaiting your request and constantly checking the internals awaiting the command.

The average shift hits the F! Ferrari system 2-4 times.

Learning how to drive an F1 is not so simple as a PDK etc. - this is most noted when you see pre mature clutch wear.

Luxury shifting IMO is more about torque vs shift speed

No offense but I can shift my 16M or 612 without jerking my passengers head.

The Scud thud or Hammer whatever the term - yes we love it!

[JWD]

For someone who also owns a M6 you should be quite happy with the F430, I like my M5 and it's SMG3 transmission but I still think the F430 F1 transmission wins it when it comes to shifting.
Not only because of the shifting time but also in my personal perception it FEELS nicer and more racy.
I've driven all kinds of transmissions even a true sequential transmission in race cars and the Ferrari F1 system is in my top 3
I like the Superfast2 tran on the GTO and Scud/16M wayyyyy better than the new DCT but maybe I'm just old fashioned .

[360trev]

Originally Posted by ferraricyprus

As Ed has said. Keep the throttle on. The 430 gear change is fantastic when set-up right. The key here is to remember it is a hydraulically-electrically shifted manual gearbox, not an auto.

+1

First thing to check is whether your clutch uptake is setup correctly. The shift speed is pretty damn fast on the F430 F1. Its in the blink of an eye really.

... Its getting pretty pointless to worry about gear change speeds when we are talking about the differences in low ms range.

[DanS]

Originally Posted by Pooya

Can you please explain more about "but F1 doesn't allow it, hence the Superfast2 on the Scud"

I wasn't very clear. I meant that Formula 1 racing regulations don't allow the cars to have dual clutch transmissions (at least through 2010, not sure about current regs). So, Ferrari, didn't adopt dual clutch until recently. The Scud shifting in 60ms loses acceleration for exactly that long. Not very long, but imparting quite the sensation.

[tazandjan]

Pooyah- No idea what you are whining about, but it seems to be because you do not realize how a dry plate F1 transmission works. First, the transmission and clutch are exactly the same as the one for the three pedal F430s. On one you use your foot to operate a clutch and your hand to select the gears, and on the other 900 psi of hydraulic pressure moves the shift forks and sensors tell the clutch when to engage and disengage hydraulically and when the power unit should apply the hydraulic pressure to upshift or downshift. An electronic throttle also matches the engine revs down for upshifts and up for downshifts. On upshifts, it is necessary for the throttle to be lifted to unload the gear train and prevent the synchronizers from wearing prematurely. On the Scud/16M and GTO, internal gearbox modifications were made to reduce friction and allow the 60 ms shift times, considerably less than the Superfast 1 system's 100 ms on the 599 and 612 OTO. 60 ms is oh so slow that at 100 mph your car moves a whole 8.8 feet during a gear shift.

Remember, Ferrari builds some 5000 cars per year, and making big changes during a model's production is just too expensive for them. Ferrari's addition of the F1 system on the F355 used the same transmission and clutch and added the F1 system.

The other transmissions you reference use a completely different operating system, have fluids to damp out the shocks of clutch engagement, and generally have two engaged shafts simultaneously. There have been many grumps about the early BMW SMG gearbox for jerky shifting, etc, so I would hardly hold that up as a paragon of transmissions. The later ones are much better in this regard.

If you want something that feels like an automatic transmission, get a car with a DCT. The 458 comes to mind, or maybe a California.

[Scottish16M]

Very well explained Taz.

The California, 458 etc have seemless gear changes and this takes away a degree of driver interaction, involvement and feel IMO, that's why us old school drivers much prefer a sngle clutch F1 system as it provides all of these elements/emotions in abundance.

My 16M is almost seemless when trundling along, however, hit the loud pedal and wait for the 5th light to appear on the steering wheel LEDs and bang, next gear, bang next and so on....terrific fun and hugely enjoyable, also I can change gear at any speeds in a F430 or my 16M without making my passengers head nod, unless of course I want it too

Pooya having read some of your threads I am unsure as to why you have a Ferrari, what took you to the Marque and what, if anything, do you enjoy about your F430?

I am, and doubtless others are too, beginning to suspect that your F430 may be a poor example, as I've never known of so many complaints and such whinging, nor have I know of anyone not to be seduced by a F430's F1 transmission and the way it rewards the driver!

[Mo T]

I was wondering what mode are you using? in "Race Mode" the shifts are instant especially at high RPM it just feels SO DAMN GOOOD

[StefVan]

The Porsche PDK ZF and Italia DCT Getrag are very similar gearboxes. Both are 7 speed dual wet clutch gearboxes. While they have a lightspeed shifting capacity when gears can be preselected (8 to 20 ms), they have a main weakness. Non predicted shift requests will take actually much longer shifting time, around 400ms. For example, let say that you want to upshift from gear 3 to 4. The 4th gear will already be preselected, ready to be engaged very fast by the second clutch. Other possible preselected gears can be 2nd and 6th. Any other gear will take much more time to engage. Not so with the F1 single clutch gearbox which will still overpass a dual clutch gearbox when used in extreme conditions. Shift time of the Scud will always be optimum and constant at 60ms whatever the requested gear change is, even at very fast down or up shifts.

In addition, the Magneti Marelli ECU used in the 430/Scud/Cambiocorsa has a true racing setup. Shifting is not only about time loss